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spark plugs - are they telling me anything ?

  • Thread starter Thread starter GateKeeper
  • Start date Start date
GateKeeper said:
Thanks...

but it's an air screw, how does that affect fuel ?

Cheers
Click to expand...
Aah,

but it is NOT an air screw, at least not like an air pilot. It is an air/fuel mix screw. By adjusting it out, you are dumping a higher volume of FUEL into the combustion chamber.
 
koolaid_kid said:
Your Air to Fuel Ratio (AFR) needs to be correct for all the various modes. I cheat and use a wideband (the scientific method) but GSR members get close enough using manual methods, which sees to be "good enough".
Click to expand...

once I have them back in, I will await your instructions on how to proceed

7981GS said:
GK, we all LOVE what you have done with that bike and really want to hear of it running around all over the place. ;)

Fingers crossed.

Eric
Click to expand...

Thanks,,,,it was running around, until it started dying out on me....:D

the schwartz said:
:p still wanna sell that bike? :p

GOOD LUCK my man, hope this nails it. someday soon i'm going to actually understand how everything in the carburetor works together. sounds like you're getting some great lessons.
Click to expand...

not out of the woods yet...:D

it still might get a for sale sign.....:-\\\

lessons are always a good thing, one can never learn too much....

.
 
but it's an air screw, how does that affect fuel ?

but if it's getting too much fuel, how does that cause it to stall out ?
Click to expand...

I wondering about this too. Too much fuel is going to cause it to idle higher anyway not die off. At certain throttle positions it could cause it to bog until the excess clears but as the idle dies, you can blip it and it picks up again. That's telling me it needs more gas or possibly less air. That's what made me think it was not jetted sufficiently to compensate for the freer flowing pipe.

Could you make it clearer for us please.

Cheers,
spyug
 
spyug said:
I wondering about this too. Too much fuel is going to cause it to idle higher anyway not die off. At certain throttle positions it could cause it to bog until the excess clears but as the idle dies, you can blip it and it picks up again. That's telling me it needs more gas or possibly less air. That's what made me think it was not jetted sufficiently to compensate for the freer flowing pipe.

Could you make it clearer for us please.

Cheers,
spyug
Click to expand...
Actually, you have it backwards, spyug. Think about what the engine does when there is an air leak. It idles higher, not lower. Most likely 2.5 is too rich, which is why I wanted to know about the pilot jets. They have been changed to a larger jet, which I found unusual for just a pipe. Usually with just a pipe you just richen the circuit with the screw, not a jet. But we can work with these, NP.
 
BigD_83 said:
Aah,

but it is NOT an air screw, at least not like an air pilot. It is an air/fuel mix screw. By adjusting it out, you are dumping a higher volume of FUEL into the combustion chamber.
Click to expand...
Very correct. By dumping more fuel, the AFR changes. At idle, you want it to run leaner than when you are at WOT (wide open throttle). That is why you adjust each circuit (main, needle, air/fuel mixture screw) individually.
 
Last edited:
koolaid_kid said:
Actually, you have it backwards, spyug. Think about what the engine does when there is an air leak. It idles higher, not lower. Most likely 2.5 is too rich, which is why I wanted to know about the pilot jets.
They have been changed to a larger jet, which I found unusual for just a pipe. Usually with just a pipe you just richen the circuit with the screw, not a jet. But we can work with these, NP.
Click to expand...

Even with the addition of pod filters and a pipe, I have never had to increase the pilot jet size.
It is way too rich no doubt.

Eric
 
On a stock engine, I agree for the most part. One has to remember, every single engine is different. The only way to tell if you need to go up is by testing. Fortunately, he has a good 1.5 turns of adjustment we can work with.
My GPZ is highly modified so I did have to go up, but it is out of the ordinary.
 
BTW, we can get you "close enough" to ride, even if it comes to pass that you really should move down a size.
 
Well I have close enough, I need better, my close enough was allowing me to ride, no issues there, just at times more often than not, idle would not stay once I got to a stop sign or lights, and I had to keep on blipping the throttle, feathering it to keep the bike running and thus not allowing it to stall

starting off, running around etc had no issue, even starting first thing, choke on, clutch in, press start button one or 2 cranks and she would fire right up, play with choke a bit, get jacket buttoned up, helmet on, gloves on, and I could almost take choke right off, and go....

so I don't know, but will follow your guys lead and do as you say, and lets see if it helps out....

.
 
Dying at lights is unsafe IMHO, so that is not close enough to ride.
What I am speaking of is that we may have to go all the way down to 1 turn out, which I personally do not like. But it will not die at lights and it will be rideable. If we have to go down that far, and we may, I would suggest getting some 37.5 jets and putting it back into the 2-3 turns out range.
 
Got ya....

lets see where we get once I have it all back in...

.
 
And the saga continues, lord I hope I don't have problems with my carbs when I get them back on.
 
mrbill5491 said:
And the saga continues, lord I hope I don't have problems with my carbs when I get them back on.
Click to expand...
LOL.
It's only been 13 days and 10 pages.
Please note, however, where things finally started to come together. GK took all the data down for the existing jets and settings. You should do the same thing. Document, document. That way, when someone comes along to help you have the information they need to correctly diagnose the most likely cause.
In this particular instance, GK purchased a bike that had been modified by the PO. In other words, he had an unknown quantity on his hands. It was only after he gave us the actual information that we said "Hey, there is something rotten in Denmark".
 
Aaah so that's what happened with GK, well I know whats in my bike nothing is being changed but the carb orings. Got all my carbs parts in separate containers and numbered to each carb. Only real concern I have is getting the floats right and setting up the snycs.
 
Unless you purchased this bike new, I urge you to document everything that he did: pilot and main jet sizes. Needle settings - number of shims, if any 0 (zero) is also a number . The number of turns out of the pilot air/fuel screw (we will document in this thread how to set them).
 
carb jetting 2

carb jetting 2

Well, measured all the floats, all are spot on, no issues there, took one cap off and found no issues here either, no holes, rips, tears etc....

my only problem is I don't have the snap ring pliers to take them apart and see what the needle is set at....

HOW critical will this be, or is this, or can I put it back and move on forward ?

and of course some pictures

all clean here as well

P1090979.jpg



got the right measurement

P1090981.jpg


not bad on the one side

P1090982.jpg



a bit closer on the other

P1090983.jpg





right spot to take the measurement from, and notice no gasket

P1090984.jpg



and nothing out of the ordinary here

P1090986.jpg



clean as a whistle, but there are them screws that could be the pain...

P1090987.jpg



solid.....

P1090989.jpg






So if I need to take the needles apart, I have to source out the pliers, this will happen tomorrow, or do I start fighting the good fight and start putting the carbs back on the bike...?
 
Canadian Tire sells snap ring pliers that were on sale a while back. I bought a pair, but the tips were pretty short. I can't recommend them for this application. In the end I ground down some finishing nails to do the trick.

I can't see how your needle settings would affect your idle though...
 
Let's forgo the needles for now, they have no effect on the idle. When you do get them, just remove the top of an outside carb and do that. That was for data collection only, it is just easiest to do while the carbs are off the bike. The most important bit of data you presented was the pilot jet size. You will still want to document the shims, btw.

O.K., put them all together. Set your air/fuel screws (from now on just screws for brevity) to 1 1/2 turns out from lightly seated and mount the carbs.
The next thing we will need are photos of the plugs, prior to starting that bad boy up. Once you take the pics, it is best if you clean them. I use brake cleaner and a brass bristle brush, you may have a similar method. Basically, we want them to be void of any previous carbon deposits. An old toothbrush will work in a pinch.
I take it you have a way of running the engine without mounting the tank? And a long skinny screwdriver that you can reach the inside screws with the carbs mounted?
Shall I P.M. my phone number so we can discuss the next steps?

I'm am missing a young Sigourney Weaver playing a seductress for this, btw, so the next time I am in Ontario you owe me a beer. ;)
 
BigD_83 said:
Canadian Tire sells snap ring pliers that were on sale a while back. I bought a pair, but the tips were pretty short. I can't recommend them for this application. In the end I ground down some finishing nails to do the trick.

I can't see how your needle settings would affect your idle though...
Click to expand...
They don't, as I just posted. That was for a document trail. I suggest finding someone you can borrow a pair from, the real ones are around $40 U.S.
Once this is done, I strongly suggest doing plug chops on the mains and the needles, which is when the shim information is critical. But until we can get this puppy idling correctly, the chops are moot.
 
BigD_83 said:
Canadian Tire sells snap ring pliers that were on sale a while back. I bought a pair, but the tips were pretty short. I can't recommend them for this application. In the end I ground down some finishing nails to do the trick.

I can't see how your needle settings would affect your idle though...
Click to expand...

The Canadian Tire ones don't work, I picked some up at lunch today, it was on my way home, and yes they are short, so they will go back, I have a few specialty stores around, so I will get some at another time, ones that will work...

koolaid_kid said:
Let's forgo the needles for now, they have no effect on the idle. When you do get them, just remove the top of an outside carb and do that. That was for data collection only, it is just easiest to do while the carbs are off the bike. The most important bit of data you presented was the pilot jet size. You will still want to document the shims, btw.

O.K., put them all together. Set your air/fuel screws (from now on just screws for brevity) to 1 1/2 turns out from lightly seated and mount the carbs.
The next thing we will need are photos of the plugs, prior to starting that bad boy up. Once you take the pics, it is best if you clean them. I use brake cleaner and a brass bristle brush, you may have a similar method. Basically, we want them to be void of any previous carbon deposits. An old toothbrush will work in a pinch.
I take it you have a way of running the engine without mounting the tank? And a long skinny screwdriver that you can reach the inside screws with the carbs mounted?
Shall I P.M. my phone number so we can discuss the next steps?

I'm am missing a young Sigourney Weaver playing a seductress for this, btw, so the next time I am in Ontario you owe me a beer. ;)
Click to expand...

So I will put the carbs back together, no needle info right now, and then go and struggle on putting the carbs back into the bike.

I will turn in the 4 screws in and then back em out 1.5 turns, I don't have an aux tank, but seems I will have to make something up, if I put the normal tank on it will be hard to get to the screws.

you can pm me the number if you wish and we can make a time to do the rest over the phone, it will not be tonight, it's getting late and I have a few things on the go.

sometime tomorrow possibly, not sure if it will be morning, afternoon, or latter...

so for now enjoy the seductress, and as for the beer, no problem, stop by anytime, door is always open...

the plugs are brand new, but I can pull them out and clean them up before first start, but there is less than 50 miles if that

so to recap
assemble the carbs, set screws to 1.5 turns out, install carbs, clean plugs, hook up fuel, and try to start the bike, and see if she idles, and call you if I get that far ?

Right
 
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