Stator Paper Caper: Shunted & Stumped!

[Speedo]

What the? Help! Read all Stator Paper stuff, conducted all tests. Tests look ok(i think), but overall it's all still bad! What am I missing (besides a brain)???

This is a repost with a little more pizazz title and better "mouse over" text (hey, I ain't no dummy....I know a boring/no thanks title when i see one too!

So then (let's see if this does better)....

Concluding my last post, several folks - all of whom were extremely helpful so BIG THANKS YOU GUYS ROCK - including BassCliff told me read the Stator Papers and test my charging system. Prev thread below where bike drained battery and ran like crap and apparently "healed" itself.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum...ight=runs+crap

However, noone really has answered the question: can a drained battery alone cause the bike to run terrible (w/ Dyna S, etc)??

Anyway, so I read all the Stator papers, checked out BassCliff's stator test and stator replacement, all of which were excellent (I esp like both the chart in SP4 and BassCliff's pictures which help a lot - including his toes). Also looked at Honda RR wiring diagram as my bike has this mod although I did not do it myself so no idea if done correctly/correct part.

Main point after all this reading/testing: this is by no means easy stuff.

I did try a forum search for "due diligence" to hopefully not waste anyone's time, including seeing Matchless's stuff on R/R compatibility and one recent post where it turned out a guy only had a kinked wire (lucky him). So if it's already out there, I apologize in advance and point the rookie idiot in the right direction/right old posts

Going Off Stator Papers IV (Quite Outstanding) Fault Chart:
Test
A1 Overall. 12.4v @ 2500. Not good (less than 13.5). Same at 5000rpm, also not good.
A2 RR red/pos. .14....good (less than .2v)
A3 RR black/neg. No black wire but green ground wire to frame. .06 good (less than .2v)

B1 Ohms resist BTWN 3 stator wires. CRAZY readings. Uh oh, bad stator?
Well, wait, the stock connector sleaves are burnt black and connectors look like sh, uh, not good. Snip all 3 to bare wires, reconduct test:
1.4 / 1.2 / 1.3 all good (below 2v). Hurray, only bad connectors? WRONG. Still 12.4 on test A1, so I continue...

B2 3 stator wires vs ground. OL / OL / OL good. (all infinity)
B3 BTWN 3 stator wires, AC volts, engine running. 83-89/85/85 good (pretty even and all over 60, but it the readings were not "rock solid" and fluctuated occasionally - don't know if that matters; if so, how else to test?)

C1 RR +pos vs 3 leads to stator wires Diode test. No readings at all. OL b4 hookup, OL after hookup. So "good" is supposed to be 1.5v or higher. Is "infinity" higher? If so good. If not bad. Need help on this one

C2 RR +pos vs 3 leads to stator wires Diode test REVERSING meter leads. .508/.515 /.515 good (all apx .5)

C3 RR -neg vs 3 leads to stator wires Diode test. Again, No readings at all. OL b4 hookup, OL after hookup. So "good" is supposed to be 1.5v or higher. Is "infinity" higher? If so good. If not bad. Also Need help on this one

C4 RR -neg vs 3 leads to stator wires Diode test REVERSING meter leads. .508/.508 /.512 good (all apx .5)
[note: I think there is a typo in C4 where "black multimeter lead" should read "RED multimeter lead"]

Battery is almost brand new. Less than 2 months old. I do not think it's battery (but maybe bad charging sys killed it in less than 100miles? possible? dunno)

Also noticed that Honda RR hookup was slightly different than diagram off BassCliff's site in that one of the 3 yellows from RR was NOT hooked directly to one of the stator wires (the WHITE/GREEN one), but rather to a RED/WHITE stock one right next to WHITE/GREEN, which is still connect to WHITE GREEN from stator. So maybe that's the fuse box loop?


Summary: Still 12.4 overall with all new connectors, etc. Where did I go wrong / what else can I check? Ahhhhhhhh.


ps
sole response fr previous lamely titled thread (thx Lucabond):

#3

Today, 06:15 PM
lucabond

Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Lunenburg, MA
Posts: 296

You want to connect that 3rd yellow wire directly to the stator. When the bike were made before the headlight on at all times they were on a switch which would connect the 3rd leg of the stator the the RR. After the rule change they just jumped that wire at a connector block to have the 3rd leg connected at all times. So what happens is due to time the connections become bad making poor contact and its like you only using 2 phases of the stator instead of all 3. That is why we now connect the 3 wires directly from the stator to the RR. Make the change and then check your charging voltage again and see if that makes any differance. Good luck
__________________
1983Gs1100gk in white. Dyna2000 +2.2coils, Progressive springs in front,new shocks in rear,Eletro sport R/R,Maxxis white wall tires,replaced carbs,boots+o-rings,valve adj,fixed all oil leaks and wiring problems,made new wind screen+coil mod

Don't speak if you can nod, Don't nod if you can wink!

 

[Speedo]

BassCliff? Anyone else? Can Lucabond get an Amen?

BassCliff? Anyone else? Can Lucabond get an Amen?

Thx again Lucabond.

So If I hook up 3rd stator wire to red/white instead of green/white on bike wiring harness, then what the heck do I do with that dangling old green/white?

Anyone else? Can Lucabond get an Amen? Basscliff?

 

[lucabond]

You just forget about it, it just loops from the stator thru the harness to a block and back to the RR leaving more chances for a poor connection. I have a feeling that is your problem. My Son's 81 gs650l came with the headlight switch and the 3rd leg of the stator was controled by the switch. When I would turn on the headlight the motor would drop rpm's and the battery would show no increase in voltage. Once I bypassed the wire and corrected the wire directly to the RR bingo I had 14.6 volts and a much brighter headlight and no drop in rpm's. You want the 3 yellow wires for the RR to go directly to the 3 wire coming from stator. You should also connect the red wire to the battery pos if its not already and the ground wire from the RR to the neg side of the battery.

Good luck

 

[BassCliff]

Hi,

Thanks for the very complete report on your charging system observations. Does your multimeter have a "diode test" position? It's different from the ohms (resistance) position. Diodes are supposed to let current flow in one direction only. That's why you should get .5v in one direction and 1.5v in the other, depending on your meter.

You'll notice in my R/R replacement guide that I mention bypassing the useless loop of wire to the non-existent headlight switch on my bike. There's even a picture. Just connect the three wires from the stator directly to the three input wires of the r/r. Cut the headlight loop wires back and cover them with tape. If you connect your r/r's output directly to the positive battery terminal, be sure to use an inline fuse of proper value (15 amps?).

I didn't mention it, but in the last picture in my stator replacement guide you can see the wires to the headlight switch have been cut and taped off. They were pretty charred when I got the bike. I replaced both the stator and r/r at the same time.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

 

[Speedo]

Ok thanks a bunch guys. I will do this tomorrow and report back with the results.

BassCliff (btw hope ur healing well....i sent u an em couple days ago), so hook up directly - also as Lucabond said. But basically snip, tape, and let dangle as far as the other wire.

Lucabond - thx again for clarification.

 

[almarconi]

All this testing is all well and good, but have you determined if your battery is any good?

What is the resting voltage of the battery??

 

[Speedo]

ps Yes, mm has Diode position and I used it. This is why getting OL (as opposed to any volts let alone 1.5v) mystifies me.

 

[Speedo]

pps BassCliff - I had not looked at RR stuff on ur site until now. Instructions are clear (and same for my bike as far as Gr/Wht and Red/Wht wires) but pic u refer to - with wires circled in yellow - not clear to tell there are even wires there, but hey, I get it.

ppps All measurements I posted are with light switch OFF (yeah, it works). Does this make ANY difference for anything posted in either stator papers (i.e. various reference measurements) OR anything if I hook up wires as you (BassCliff and Lucabond) suggest which is ALL stator DIRECT?

i.e. I'm thinking that if I cut out the headlight loop, then I should perhaps "NEVER" turn my lights OFF lest risk circuit overcharging or something?

pppps Does wiring ground directly to battery really make a difference/necessary?

 

[lucabond]

The RR needs the ground to work it's very important to make sure you have a good ground so connecting it direct to the battery is the way to go. It wouldn't hurt to make 2 ground connections 1 to the battery and 1 the the engine where the battery ground goes. Just like the loop of wire you are bypassing the old ground connection could be less that optimal.
When you use the diode postion it puts out a small voltage to check diodes which are 1 way valves current should flow 1 way and not the other.
You should have the headlight on at all times while driving anyhow but if its off the extra voltage gets shunted to ground hence the need for a good ground. Good luck

 

[Speedo]

lucabond - thanks again. I really appreciate ur advise/expertise.

I get the concept of the diode (kinda like an electronic "check valve" in plumbing).

So does INFINITY/OL mean current is NOT flowing (i.e. all is ok) in my series of measurements as per Stator Papers 4? Or not? Or might I just have too cheap of a multimeter?

Tomorrow I'm going to change the wiring as per what you and BassCliff suggested and retest. After that - and hopefully it will show improvement - I can very easily "Y" off the ground wire from the RR and loop back to NEG of battery as insurance.

 

[lucabond]

You got it infinity means there is no connection. In the test you are trying to see if any of the stator legs are shorted to ground ie the engine. So if you get infinity there is no short to ground. And yes a diode is just like a check valve flow 1 way but not the other untill you over come its voltage rating current will flow but they are sized for the circut it goes in so it shouldnt happen unless its bad. Good luck

 

[Sandy]

Thx again Lucabond.

So If I hook up 3rd stator wire to red/white instead of green/white on bike wiring harness, then what the heck do I do with that dangling old green/white?

Anyone else? Can Lucabond get an Amen? Basscliff?

That yellow stator wire should go to the green/white wire coming from the stator. Not the red/white or the green/white going to the handlebar bar switch. They will be left disconnected, just tape them back to harness.

 

[Speedo]

Fixed!

Fixed!

Results from (only) connecting 3rd (Gr/Wht) stator direct to RR (I also changed all connections to crimped spade):
Idle: 13.3v
5000rpm: 14.2v

Results from then also grounding RR directly to battery (I ended up using crimp spade connectors to extend the RR ground wire as I can't find my solder or gun):
Idle: 13.4, peaking to 13.5v
5000rpm: 14.4 peaking to 14.5v

I did not mess with +Positive connection as set up(which is not directly to battery) because I cannot tell what is going on - but it obviously is working fine now. I wish I knew how to post a photo with this. Also looks like there is already a relay there. I will be doing the voltage to coils (they are Dyna) test next to see if they are getting full 12v before I consider messing with my now "ain't broke no more" setup.

Again, I wish I knew how to post a pic with this, but anyway...

Thanks VERY much to all. If anyone out there thinks these guys are kidding/too obsessed/full of it, think again.

 

[Speedo]

Then again, maybe not

Then again, maybe not

It dawned on me 1/2 hr after my last post that those (now good) numbers were all tested with LIGHTS OFF. So went back and retested with lights on. Not good:
Idle: 12.5v
5000rpm: 13.0v

Short of going in and cleaning all connections to lights as well as - as Stator Papers state in "A" section - cleaning all connections, especially on +POS battery wires, I have no idea what to do next so I hope that works.

Son of gun of gunderson. Now what?

 

[BassCliff]

Hi,

The red wire output of your r/r goes into the fusebox, through a fuse, then to your positive battery terminal (it's actually probably going to where the positive battery cable connects to the solenoid). You should clean every electrical connection and ground on your entire wiring harness including the fusebox and ignition switch. I know it's inconvenient to remove the ground strap between the battery and the bottom of the engine, but it must be done. Scrub connections with a small wire brush and spray them with your favorite contact contact cleaner (De-Oxit, or similar). Don't forget the connections on the solenoid, blinker stalks, starter, the connections in the plastic connectors on the wiring harness, the connections in the headlight bucket, everything. You've got some extra resistance (voltage drop) somewhere (Is the headlight socket or switch corroded?). I've got pictures of my fusebox cleanup on my site and tips about cleaning/repairing your wiring harness in the Electrical Odd and Ends section. Keep us informed.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

 

[Speedo]

Ah Shucks

Ah Shucks

Thanks again to all and will keep you posted. Any other advise / stuff to check and/or fix is hugely appreciated.

I was really hoping NOT to have to go thru the PITA of cleaning everything, etc, etc.

(OK, if this works, thanks BassCliff - ur site's user documentation is excellent - even tho I am trying Picasa as opposed to Photobucket, I think I could translate due to clarity you have; I highly recommend it to all others as cornfused as I am about the whole posting pics thing...)

Anyway, here how the RR wiring looks at moment:
http://picasaweb.google.com/andrewp...key=Gv1sRgCM7tnemctYCymAE#5388920808132486674

http://picasaweb.google.com/andrewp...key=Gv1sRgCM7tnemctYCymAE#5388920675037786770

But alas, I guess a little housecleaning is due. I've had "Suzi" for 20 years and after totally obsessing on so much stuff - almost everything really - over 15yrs ago that I can't even remember all the stuff (and this includes wiring a stealth "black out" mode into headlight switch - "OFF" means like off for ALL lights, including brakelights, all except rear brake light (which is easy to safely not use) - look, not saying it was a smart idea at the time, but I just wanted to see if I could figure it out/do it using the Clymer/stock wiring diagrams. I could and I did (and actually, it all still works fine notwithstanding my overall charging sys issues).

Well I guess it is time to give 'ol Suz a good once over all over again. Here are 2 crappy pics in the shed in case anyone cares. Cramped, lighting was bad, she's dirty as hell and I didn't want to pull her out and disrupt the diagnostic "massage" that is going on.

http://picasaweb.google.com/andrewp...key=Gv1sRgCM7tnemctYCymAE#5388920543433041906

http://picasaweb.google.com/andrewp...key=Gv1sRgCM7tnemctYCymAE#5388920354103508994

 

[BassCliff]

 

[Speedo]

thanks basscliff

thanks basscliff

this is my bike. thx to basscliff, I get how to attach pix now. very nice of you to get my back on this post....

 

[BassCliff]

this is my bike. thx to basscliff, I get how to attach pix now. very nice of you to get my back on this post....

Sorry if I spoiled your fun.



Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

 

[Guest]

a couple of things that i learnt from the good gsr guys while tracing my charging problems are:

• your battery can have good voltage and still not be fully charged (and this will affect your charging voltage readings) - so to conduct definite tests on the charging system firt have the batt tested by an automotive electritian
• the stator can test ok for voltage output but still be unable to produce enough current to meet the demand of the headlight current draw