Still Won't Idle! I think I'm done.

[UncleMike]

Mike, I haven't been able to stick with your thread because I've been busy. I'll be busy today and this weekend too but you're getting help anyway. Just letting you know so you don't think I'm ignoring you.
I too assumed the valves were adjusted, along with a few other things.
You guys know I always say to check all the basic maintanance things first, then troubleshoot. Basics are good compression/not burning oil, valve clearances set, good fuel flow/clean-rebuilt carbs/tank/petcock, clean air filter, good spark/timing/clean electrical connectors and good plug leads, etc.
Part of the problem as pointed out earlier is that this is a long thread and I believe this thread isn't the first one about this bikes problems. So people kind of forget what's been done to fix a problem.
Your compression reads, while not balanced, are still within spec but ideally the difference shouldn't be more than 10% unless the factory manual says different. I don't believe those reads would indicate/cause your problem though. Maybe a little uneven idle but not "intake leak" symptoms.
I've taken apart a few bikes that had their valve clearances all over the place with some at less than .02mm clearance and some more than .20 mm. They weren't running well but none of them had rpm's rising significantly with engine temp. But you should adjust those valves because it's part of the basic tuning. Adjust on a stone cold engine only, overnight is best.
I'd re-check the compression with a completely warmed up engine (same temp as when the rpm's rise up) and see what the reads are then.

Thank you, Keith. Valves are next on my list, and then I'll figure out where the hell I've got an intake leak coming from.

Mike

 

[t3rmin]

Thank you, Keith. Valves are next on my list, and then I'll figure out where the hell I've got an intake leak coming from.

Mike

Since we're going back over the basics:

1) Have you ever actually done a vacuum carb sync?

2) Have you checked that the screws plugging the vacuum ports on the intake runners are in there tight?

 

[UncleMike]

Since we're going back over the basics:

1) Have you ever actually done a vacuum carb sync?

2) Have you checked that the screws plugging the vacuum ports on the intake runners are in there tight?

Yes and yes.

 

[UncleMike]

So, anyone want to help me with 16v valve adjustment?

I've got the cover off and the crankshaft turned so that the T is showing through the window. The notches on the cams are pointing in at one another, if I'm looking at the right thing.

What I'm not sure of is what the hell Table 8 is supposed to be telling me, and where I'm supposed to be sliding the feeler gauge.

 

[DimitriT]

So, anyone want to help me with 16v valve adjustment?

I've got the cover off and the crankshaft turned so that the T is showing through the window. The notches on the cams are pointing in at one another, if I'm looking at the right thing.

What I'm not sure of is what the hell Table 8 is supposed to be telling me, and where I'm supposed to be sliding the feeler gauge.

Table 8 is telling you which valves you can adjust with the cam markings in the given position. So if your cam markings are point in, you can adjust the #4 valves (and some others).

You want to insert the feelers between the cam lobe and the follower bearing surface.

Adjustment is very easy.

1. Loosen both jamb nuts and back out the screws until you can get the .10 mm feeler in there smoothly.

2. Tighten the screws until you find the point where any further tightening on either screw will cause the feeler to hang up. This takes some practice.

3. Without moving the screws, use a 10 mm socket to tighten the jamp nuts. They sell a special tool for this job but you can manage with a regular socket and a pair of needle nose pliers, IMO.

4. Turn the crank a few times and go back to the same cam position.

5. Check the clearance again. I like to have it where the .10mm fits evenly but the .11 doesn't. The range in the manual is .09 to .13

 

[UncleMike]

Thanks!

It's where the feeler gauge should be sliding in that's hanging me up.

For instance:

You want to insert the feelers between the cam lobe and the follower bearing surface.

I don't know what a lot of those words mean. I'm assuming "cam lobe" is the part of the camshaft that depresses the valves as it spins, and is shaped like an egg from the side?

 

[salty_monk]

Yes, that's the lobe, the follower often looks like the head of a hammer (not sure on these bikes) but it's basically the bit the lobe contacts with and moves up & down as CAM goes round. You want to adjust the clearance at the base of the "egg" usually....

Dan

 

[UncleMike]

Yes, that's the lobe, the follower often looks like the head of a hammer (not sure on these bikes) but it's basically the bit the lobe contacts with and moves up & down as CAM goes round. You want to adjust the clearance at the base of the "egg" usually....

Dan

Hmmm,...I would think it would be in constant contact with the follower then, and you wouldn't be able to get any of the feelers in there, and I can't.

Not to mention the fact that it wouldn't seem to make sense that there would be individual adjustments for each valve then, would it? I'm thinking that if the lobe is acutating two valves at a time, why not just have one adjuster for both valves?

 

[t3rmin]

Hmmm,...I would think it would be in constant contact with the follower then, and you wouldn't be able to get any of the feelers in there, and I can't.

Not to mention the fact that it wouldn't seem to make sense that there would be individual adjustments for each valve then, would it? I'm thinking that if the lobe is acutating two valves at a time, why not just have one adjuster for both valves?

I am really not familiar with the 16v bikes or the adjustment thereof, but, you need an adjustment for each valve because they won't necessarily wear evenly. Valve adjustment is there to correct for wear, which causes clearances to go one way or another (depending on what's wearing and how much, in relation to other stuff wearing...).

As to where to stick the feeler, you stick it between the cam lobes and the thing below the lobes which they contact and push down (*edit* actually between the thing that ultimately pushes the valve tappets down and the valve tappets). The idea is there should be a certain amount of clearance between the lobe and the thing it pushes on (actually between the thing the lobe pushes on, and the things it pushes on) when it's NOT being pushed (it only pushes when the longer side of the lobe is downward). If there's not enough clearance, the valve may not close all the way and if there's too much it may not open enough or stay open long enough.

*sigh* I tried to make that simple, but it doesn't sound simple. ;-)

 

[DanTheMan]

Hmmm,...I would think it would be in constant contact with the follower then, and you wouldn't be able to get any of the feelers in there, and I can't.

Not to mention the fact that it wouldn't seem to make sense that there would be individual adjustments for each valve then, would it? I'm thinking that if the lobe is acutating two valves at a time, why not just have one adjuster for both valves?

The lobe shouldn't be operating two valves at a time(on a 8 valve engine). As far as the cam follower adjustment, I'll have to consult my book.
On edit, one cam lobe could probably operate two valves simultaneously on a 16 valve, but the measurements would have to be equal.

 

[UncleMike]

I've got it now, sorry for the confusion. They're just a bit tighter than they should be, so I was having trouble getting the feeler in there and second guessing myself.

Thanks for the help! I'll let you know how I mess this up!

~Mike

 

[DanTheMan]

I've got it now, sorry for the confusion. They're just a bit tighter than they should be, so I was having trouble getting the feeler in there and second guessing myself.

Thanks for the help! I'll let you know how I mess this up!

~Mike

Second guessing will get you every time........:-D

 

[UncleMike]

Second guessing will get you every time........:-D

I just appreciate everyone's patience. It's only with a forum and people like this that a guy with absolutely no hands on mechanical experience short of changing oil and filter and sparkplugs could tackle everything I've managed so far.

Thank you all. I only hope I can return the favor in some way.

 

[Nessism]

Maybe I'm wrong here but aren't you suppose to insert the feeler gauges (two) between the valve and the adjuster screw?? Each valve needs to be adjusted such that the clearance is the same or there will be a skewing and twisting of the follower during operation.

 

[DimitriT]

Maybe I'm wrong here but aren't you suppose to insert the feeler gauges (two) between the valve and the adjuster screw?? Each valve needs to be adjusted such that the clearance is the same or there will be a skewing and twisting of the follower during operation.

The feeler goes between the cam lobe (the egg shaped thing with the shiny surface) and the follower bearing surface (the other shiny area which comes into contact with the lobe as it turns). I like to first back out the screws and then gently back them back in until I feel the screw has come in contect with the valve. I do that for both valves. I then take my .10 mm feeler in one hand and my adjusting tool in the other (a pair of pliers will work). I back out both sides 1/4 turn and try the feeler. I do this until I find the point where the feeler slides in smoothly. Now if I tighten either side just a smidge I'll find the feeler will bind up and I can't remove it easily. It will actually feel tighter on one side of the surface as you tighten that side. The goal is to get a nice even clearance on the whole surface. I like to see the .10mm go in smooth, but .12 go in tight or not at all (to get .12 mm I combine the .08 and .04 feelers). Now you can use your 10 mm box wrench to tighten up the jamb nuts while holding the adjustment screws. I find that the tightening will cause a small loss in clearance (maybe .005 mm). Once both sides are nice and tight turn the crank a few times and measure it again.

 

[UncleMike]

The feeler goes between the cam lobe (the egg shaped thing with the shiny surface) and the follower bearing surface (the other shiny area which comes into contact with the lobe as it turns). I like to first back out the screws and then gently back them back in until I feel the screw has come in contect with the valve. I do that for both valves. I then take my .10 mm feeler in one hand and my adjusting tool in the other (a pair of pliers will work). I back out both sides 1/4 turn and try the feeler. I do this until I find the point where the feeler slides in smoothly. Now if I tighten either side just a smidge I'll find the feeler will bind up and I can't remove it easily. It will actually feel tighter on one side of the surface as you tighten that side. The goal is to get a nice even clearance on the whole surface. I like to see the .10mm go in smooth, but .12 go in tight or not at all (to get .12 mm I combine the .08 and .04 feelers). Now you can use your 10 mm box wrench to tighten up the jamb nuts while holding the adjustment screws. I find that the tightening will cause a small loss in clearance (maybe .005 mm). Once both sides are nice and tight turn the crank a few times and measure it again.

Okay, now I'm confused again. I thought I was supposed to be inserting it between where the valve itself makes contact with the bottom of the adjuster screw.

 

[UncleMike]

Okay, it's the Clymer that's screwing me. That's where it shows to insert the feeler in the picture, but when I inserted it between the lobe and the tappet(?) it was a LOT easier to adjust.

Thanks
~Mike

 

[Dink]

On a 16v motor the feeler should go between the valve and the adjuster screw!! BTW you are allowed to bend a feeler guage to make it easier to insert; I know I have on mine, do yourself the favour of getting the genuine tool for the adjuster screws, it makes it SO much easier.
Then again what would I know I only have four 16v motors, and have had at least one for eight years, and work "in the trade".

Dink

 

[UncleMike]

I need to change the title of this thread,...


...BECAUSE SHE IDLES!!! Every single one of those valves was WAY too tight. Put her all back together and started her up and she idled. She didn't die. She didn't stall.

I'm so mfing happy!

Thank you all. Thank you for your patience. Thank you for walking me through every step.

SHE IDLES! After more than a year, she idles!

(And I'm sorry, Dink, but I was putting the feeler gauge between the lobe and the tappet, although I did check between the valve and the screw as well. And I didn't use the genuine tool either, but it's on order!)

THANK YOU ALL!

 

[Dink]

Mike that is fantastic news!!! Now re-synch the carbs.

Dink