Super Series R/R Market Survey

[koolaid_kid]

I'm an engineer and had my own company producting H/W and software and I have looked into it but it just doesnt make economic sense to redesign when there is such a nice part avaliable. If you are a student and want to do it as a hoppy, and your labor is free (because you will probaly spend 200 hours if you get help) you are probaly also going to be looking at a kluge design which is much larger than this one. This is a electronic design/ thermal design and packaging problems.

If you knew you could sell 1000 minimum, then I would probaly go ahead and do it.

I would it would take between 80-120 hours to put together a build to print package that has been tested. Typical billing rates for engineering are almost always over $100 per hour. So you are looking at a minimum of $10K to design such a thing in NRE (non recurring engineering) and then you can start producing them how many you want to buy?

To produce 1000 units would still probably cost you $50 per unit. So figure $10 per unit NRE plus the $50 you are looking at a whole sale cost of $60. Put them on sale on E-bay for $100 give ebay 10% and you are netting $30 per unit ($30K) for a part time job and $60K investment. It would probably take 6-12 months to sell them. I make a lot more money than that in salary and there is no risk.

If there is someone that is an experienced power supply guy and they want a hobby with a moderate risk business proposition then maybe.

Thats enough of the business plan to realize it would take a significant commitment to do a redesign and $170 delivered for a nice commercial product looks great to me.

I'm an engineer also. I am fully aware of recurring and non-recurring costs. A swag at prices is just that, a swag. Until a unit is diagnosed, no real costs can be estimated.
Your post suggests that they are making 200-300% profit, which was my point.

 

[posplayr]

Your post suggests that they are making 200-300% profit, which was my point.

I'm not sure how you figure that.

Your original question was has anybody looked at reverse engineering a device like this? If you look at the first post in this thread, that is what I was doing (I would think it is obvious if you reread the first post).

I have looked at the likely costs involved with various design perturbations and considering something already exists it is not really an attractive proposition for me and what I see (I'm not writing a business plan for you).

As a young strapping engineer here is your opportunity to start a little business. Let us know how it works out.

For me it is not of interest and I'll pass.

 

[koolaid_kid]

I'm not sure how you figure that.

"To produce 1000 units would still probably cost you $50 per unit. So figure $10 per unit NRE plus the $50 you are looking at a whole sale cost of $60."

Your original question was has anybody looked at reverse engineering a device like this? If you look at the first post in this thread, that is what I was doing (I would think it is obvious if you reread the first post).

Your first post discussed a shunting regulator, which is not this discussion.

I have looked at the likely costs involved with various design perturbations and considering something already exists it is not really an attractive proposition for me and what I see (I'm not writing a business plan for you).

As a young strapping engineer here is your opportunity to start a little business. Let us know how it works out.

For me it is not of interest and I'll pass.

Since the obvious sarcasm is not useful in a technical discussion, it will be ignored.
This forum is for GS owners to save a few bucks, and that is the sum total of my involvement. I merely offer alternatives to GS owners, rather than accepting the status quo.

 

[Calvin Blackmore]

I once had a design perturbation but was too embarassed to talk about it.


Its good we can talk about these things here so no one has to live with hidden angst.

 

[posplayr]

"To produce 1000 units would still probably cost you $50 per unit. So figure $10 per unit NRE plus the $50 you are looking at a whole sale cost of $60."

Your first post discussed a shunting regulator, which is not this discussion.



Since the obvious sarcasm is not useful in a technical discussion, it will be ignored.
This forum is for GS owners to save a few bucks, and that is the sum total of my involvement. I merely offer alternatives to GS owners, rather than accepting the status quo.

Your starting to remind me of someone else........ Starts with a "B"

 

[koolaid_kid]

Wow, being compared to Basscliff or bwringer is an honor.
I was trained decades ago to question, rather than accept blanket statements. I am just trying to understand things here, nothing more.

 

[posplayr]

Wow, being compared to Basscliff or bwringer is an honor.
I was trained decades ago to question, rather than accept blanket statements. I am just trying to understand things here, nothing more.

That is truly a self serving statement. I don't recall you asking any question about my response other than to question the veracity. I guess it must be your decades of training which have resulted in your staunch adherance to NIH.

 

[koolaid_kid]

Sigh. There can be no answer to this. Peace to everyone who had followed this on a technical level.

 

[Guest]

Where did it all go bad?

Where did it all go bad?

Thank you Pos for all the information! Where did this thread lead off too? Wasn't it about sharing some info? Anyway, I appreciate it. Heat is an enemy of the engine. Especially an air-cooled one. REduce it and it lives longer and theoretically, make more power. With a newer, better regulator, I can breathe better. Now I am considering adding one of these R/R to my GSXR. I wonder if it will make more power than the 172 it already does. And, am considering it for a Busa too. While $200 is a little pricey at first, after buying a couple of the regular ones, wouldn't I start to come out ahead??? Especially if I don't have to replace the 'ol stator every year? Sorry, I already forgot which is the newer one, is it the Shunt or another?
Also, a note for all. The GSXR1000, Busa and a few other "Suzuki" models share the same mounting/bolt pattern for the stator. Only real difference, is the thickness of the stator. I was going to graft a new one along with a sprague starter clutch to my GS, but the expenses were too much. Easier to swap the Busa engine as it is cheaper.
Once again, I say thank you Pos for the info and time spent with research to help us all out.
Greg

 

[posplayr]

I got my ED, because the PO had wanted an 83GS1100ED for many years and he finally found one. He was a practiced e-bay shopper. However, right after he got the bike from a pampering PO-2 (two times removed) his charging system went out . Not knowing how to fix it he took it to the local dealer who charged him $600 to replace stator and R/R . Well that blew his own budget and he had to give up the bike. He sold it to me for $1300 after having spent $600 for the electrics. I'm sure he had paid his PO-2 more than $1000 so he took a bath and lost the bike he had wanted for years. He had also added 1150 carbs, jet kit , nice seat, and Yoshi pipe. The PO before him had a HD clucth , fork brace, fairing, and SS brake lines from what I can rememeber.

In my mind the SERIES R/R is almost an indespensible upgrade for a GS or most other bikes running these SHUNT R/R's.

The SERIES R/R solves most of the electrical problems. It still needs good connections between R/R and battery/frame, but the emphasis on the wires/connections between stator and R/R are now less important. The Compu-fire has very thick 10 gauge wires and is some enough to basically fit (with a little work) into the same space as an OEM R/R.


Below is the best deal I have found for these


The price is $179.99 shipped. The seller told me he would knock off $15.00 for Qty 10 order. That would be
$164.99 as compared to

http://www.usmotoman.com/product/voltage-regulator-for-compufire-3phase-system/-1_17037

Here are some more of the many horror stories about motorcycle charging systems.

http://www.bikebandit.com/electrosport-rectifier-regulator?WT.mc_id=1484958&CAWELAID=338440482

Comments about Electrosport Industries Electrosport Rectifier/Regulator:
Replaced the OEM RR with one of these in my 82 CB900 and replaced the stator and Alt rotor at the same time...

Ran for 2 days and quit. Got towed home that day..Tested the RR and got 0 resistance...

Replaced it again, this time with new brush's and a brush holder..

It tested good, putting out 14v at 2500 RPM..Rode it to work today, flat out died when I got to the parking lot..

Tested the RR again, 0 ohms resistance...

I will order another one based on previous reviews , but for an RR that supposedly has Overload protection , there's none on the ones I've been getting...

In the meantime, after I get towed home again today, I will be checking for int shorts all over on this bike....

Bike Bandit rocks though.....

Comments about Electrosport Industries Electrosport Rectifier/Regulator:
My 98 Ducati ST2 lost one regulator within warranty and then another one after 10 more years. Ducati wanted about $400 due to the bad exchange rate this year so I looked for a cheaper model. Bike Bandit was great at getting this Electrosport ESR510 shipped fast but as soon as I saw the wiring I knew it would not work. Electrosport used 16 gauge wire versus the Ducati's original 10 gauge. Using 16 gauge wire says a lot about your design target for current. I talk to one guy at Electrosport that seem to know what he was talking about but when I called back a week later he was gone. I have 12 years of electrical engineering experience in scientific instrumentation and it was clear to me that this regulator would not handle the 420 watt generator output.

Bike Bandit handled the return quickly and went with an OEM part. I wish Bike Bandit would carry Ducati OEM parts.

 

[posplayr]

Thank you Pos for all the information! Where did this thread lead off too? Wasn't it about sharing some info? Anyway, I appreciate it. Heat is an enemy of the engine. Especially an air-cooled one. REduce it and it lives longer and theoretically, make more power. With a newer, better regulator, I can breathe better. Now I am considering adding one of these R/R to my GSXR. I wonder if it will make more power than the 172 it already does. And, am considering it for a Busa too. While $200 is a little pricey at first, after buying a couple of the regular ones, wouldn't I start to come out ahead??? Especially if I don't have to replace the 'ol stator every year? Sorry, I already forgot which is the newer one, is it the Shunt or another?
Also, a note for all. The GSXR1000, Busa and a few other "Suzuki" models share the same mounting/bolt pattern for the stator. Only real difference, is the thickness of the stator. I was going to graft a new one along with a sprague starter clutch to my GS, but the expenses were too much. Easier to swap the Busa engine as it is cheaper.
Once again, I say thank you Pos for the info and time spent with research to help us all out.
Greg

Thanks for the comments.

Agree, even if you have a well charging system, the improvement in hp output (I still have to estimate this) is nice but the drop in operating temperature is almost unbelievable. It has meant the difference between never getting above 210 v.s. never runing below 230 degF . So apples to apples I'm about 50 degree difference between the sprayer and the R/R mod.

The cost differential is not even an issue. I had a brand new Electrosport stator showing signs of excess heat in the powdercoated surface coating (+600 degF) after a 250 mile ride. Totally fired stator at 8K miles. BassCliff is replacing stators annually from freeway crusining at 80 mph. All these problems dissappear with the drop in heat and the increase in hp gas mileage.

Any conclusion that this costs too much is false economy in my mind. If someone is debating getting one of these, I would suggest you consider how long you want to ride your bike. If you ride it hard at all, this should become a first priority budget item so you can hopefully salvage what ever life your current stator still has.

 

[Calvin Blackmore]

odd the little 5k stamped on my stator must mean its test point for 70VAC


I find it strange that the larger bikes would not have been designed to run at hwy speeds

I can understand my bike was intended as a about town cruiser but on the big boys 80 would be an understandable cruising speed.

 

[posplayr]

odd the little 5k stamped on my stator must mean its test point for 70VAC


I find it strange that the larger bikes would not have been designed to run at hwy speeds

I can understand my bike was intended as a about town cruiser but on the big boys 80 would be an understandable cruising speed.

Cliff has a 850; not sure what RPM he is running at but he has an annual stator change three years running.

I run elevated RPM in the twisties 5-7K RPM. Usually in 2 gear if the corners are tight or 3rd if it is more open.

The ED is doing 5K at about 80 mph so that is really the top of the "legal" speeds and the bottom of the RPM range in question. That is not as much of an issue. At 7K rpm the power in the stator (dissipated in heat) doubles compared to 5K RPM.

 

[Calvin Blackmore]

Cliff has a 850; not sure what RPM he is running at but he has an annual stator change three years running.

I run elevated RPM in the twisties 5-7K RPM. Usually in 2 gear if the corners are tight or 3rd if it is more open.

The ED is doing 5K at about 80 mph so that is really the top of the "legal" speeds and the bottom of the RPM range in question.

damn i run roughly +1k per +10 kmph above 5000 rmp in 6th gear

so 7000 at 140
8000 at 160
9500 at whatever my tope speed is seems about brushing 190

i prolly need one of these more than most of you

 

[posplayr]

damn i run roughly +1k per +10 kmph above 5000 rmp in 6th gear

so 7000 at 140
8000 at 160
9500 at whatever my tope speed is seems about brushing 190

i prolly need one of these more than most of you

140 Kph is 87 Mph
160 Kph is 99 Mph

Where are you riding at those speeds sustained?? Oh I guess I have on Hiway 5 down central CA. when retuning from the first GSR rally I attended.

Looking back that probaly did alot of heat damage to the stator because I was ridding for a few hours from Stockton to Kettleman City (300 miles )

 

[Calvin Blackmore]

Are all of you guys from California and if so is it hot and dry there as well
I assume even in high air flow damp cool air takes away heat better than hot dry air.

I know California has regions with differing climes but I always see it as a sultry hot desert

 

[posplayr]

Are all of you guys from California and if so is it hot and dry there as well
I assume even in high air flow damp cool air takes away heat better than hot dry air.

I know California has regions with differing climes but I always see it as a sultry hot desert

I'm in SB which is right on the ocean and typical temperature is 70 degrees

http://www.weather.com/weather/toda...oogle.com&cm_pla=forecastpage&cm_ite=CityPage

However, as soon as you move more than a few miles back off the coast the heat climbs and it is easy to get to 90-100 degF and usually pretty dry over there. Will have to cjheck with a local expert on convective cooling on the impact of humidity.

 

[Macmatic]

Is anyone thinking about a group buy on these? $180 or so is a bit to shell out but it sounds like money well spent if it has:

Better regulation
Additional output
Lower engine heat
Longer stator life
Security (peace of mind on road trips)

I'd be in for one if Pos still has both thumbs up in a few more weeks.

/\/\ac

 

[Calvin Blackmore]

i thought there was no group buy planned?

I have never partaaken of a ventrue like that online before
but Im sure I saw it doen with something else successfully on here

I want one just based on the heat reduction
the bitchin cool factor is also there

 

[posplayr]

Is anyone thinking about a group buy on these? $180 or so is a bit to shell out but it sounds like money well spent if it has:

Better regulation
Additional output
Lower engine heat
Longer stator life
Security (peace of mind on road trips)

I'd be in for one if Pos still has both thumbs up in a few more weeks.

/\/\ac

I'm going to try and do some comparision testing this weekend to actually measure the voltage/current/power in the stator winding with both a FET SHUNT and Compu-Fire SERIES unit. It should be dramatic.

Better regulation - I showed Bill I could get over 14V idling by the time I was at 1500 RPM (actually less). So I figure that in that critical low idle area you can be a full volt higher than a Honda. Of course if the idle is too low then even the SERIES drops below 13V (1K RPM).

Additional output (rated at 40 amps and a typical GS is only 13-15 amps)

Lower engine heat (I saw 50 degrees but that includes my squirter).

Longer stator life (obviously should be indefinite)

Security (peace of mind on road trips) goes without saying