Super Series R/R Market Survey

[salty_monk]

I did it successfully with some fork braces... worked out fine although it was a lot of work personally getting it all organised.

Dan

 

[posplayr]

I did it successfully with some fork braces... worked out fine although it was a lot of work personally getting it all organised.

Dan

The key would be to have the MOTOMAN just take all of the orders and arrange for all of the separate drop ships. Again he only offered a $15 off so maybe that was included.

I think that is how Eric used to do it when he was doing Ohlins deals; at least that I how I got mine. Direct order but great price.

 

[salty_monk]

Yes but the fork brace guy wasn't going to go for that unfortunately.... It worked ok in the finish.

 

[Nessism]

Jim,

Don't take this the wrong way but if there was 10 hp at stake, or even two hp I suspect, every super bike on planet would be built using one of these new fangled switching type R/R's...but they aren't. The FET type is what comes on most of the high end Japanese bikes like the CBR's, FJR's, R1's, Z1's, etc, so I think you are overstating the power consumption that takes place in the system (don't forget, the max power from the stator is listed as 260(?) watts for a reason).

My guess is the reason your stator is burning up is because you are using one of those Chinese built Electrosport/RM Stator stators with oversized windings. Using a high quality OE type rewind like a Rick's, or maybe that OE Kawasaki stator you mentioned before, will likely solve all your problems without having to re-engineer the entire charging and oiling system. Keep it simple is my motto.

All this said, I truly hope this experiment of yours works out. Sounds like fun (in a nerdy engineer sort of way (and yes, I'm an engineer too)).

 

[Guest]

Jim,

Don't take this the wrong way but if there was 10 hp at stake, or even two hp I suspect, every super bike on planet would be built using one of these new fangled switching type R/R's...but they aren't. The FET type is what comes on most of the high end Japanese bikes like the CBR's, FJR's, R1's, Z1's, etc, so I think you are overstating the power consumption that takes place in the system (don't forget, the max power from the stator is listed as 260(?) watts for a reason).
All this said, I truly hope this experiment of yours works out..

My thoughts exactly, as I posted earlier.....anyway, since a dyno pull is planned, it will be interesting to see if there is more than a couple hp gain, similar to simply running with the stator disconnected.

 

[posplayr]

Jim,

Don't take this the wrong way but if there was 10 hp at stake, or even two hp I suspect, every super bike on planet would be built using one of these new fangled switching type R/R's...but they aren't. The FET type is what comes on most of the high end Japanese bikes like the CBR's, FJR's, R1's, Z1's, etc, so I think you are overstating the power consumption that takes place in the system (don't forget, the max power from the stator is listed as 260(?) watts for a reason).

My guess is the reason your stator is burning up is because you are using one of those Chinese built Electrosport/RM Stator stators with oversized windings. Using a high quality OE type rewind like a Rick's, or maybe that OE Kawasaki stator you mentioned before, will likely solve all your problems without having to re-engineer the entire charging and oiling system. Keep it simple is my motto.

All this said, I truly hope this experiment of yours works out. Sounds like fun (in a nerdy engineer sort of way (and yes, I'm an engineer too)).

Ed,

Not sure what to say about me "overcomplicating or over engineering" but simply that is what I do (apparently) which of course to me simply means to rely on first principles to solve problems.:-\\\ There is a problem no? You are in fact offering solutions to the problem. So now we are simply talking about how to approach the problem. I have offered a theoretical basis for my approach which is to go to a series R/R design. The issue is the square law power capacity of a PM generator. What we don't know is when (due to saturated magnetics )that square law starts to roll off .

While it is true that the "extra power output" design will certainly make things worse, the Electrosport stator is of all appearances very high quality. Also I'm not the only one burning up stators.; see BassCliff's saga.

The oiling system is done and I'm not the first person to have redirected oil flow on a GS. KrisV was just showing me the same trick to keep his turbo cool. Of course you are confusing things some what here with the reference to the oiling system. The need for the sprayer to cool the stator is pretty much negated by the series regulator. The main reason for retaining the sprayer in addition to the series r/r device (besides the fact I already did it) was to releive some of the pressure from the hipo gears . As I have mentioned a few times I have not been able to reconcile the incremental benefit of cooling due to reduced oil pressure v.s. improved stator cooling.

I'm going to take some electrical measurements this weekend and to be able to estimate hp loss and heat dissappation in the stator as a function of RPM. This will be to compare the stator winding power for the Compu-fire v.s. the FHA0012A

To be clear , my bike is done with the sprayer and series R/R design (installed last weekend). I'm really only doing the tests to demonstrate the difference for GSR.

Jim

 

[Macmatic]

I'm going to take some electrical measurements this weekend and to be able to estimate hp loss and heat dissappation in the stator as a function of RPM. This will be to compare the stator winding power for the Compu-fire v.s. the FHA0012A

Jim

Are you still planning to do back to back dyno runs at some point? It would be interesting to see how closely the real world numbers compare to the paper numbers.

Power gains aside, from what I've read it seems like the drop in stator temp/engine temp is documented and factual? That alone seems like it would be worth the change in the not-too-long run.

/\/\ac

 

[posplayr]

Are you still planning to do back to back dyno runs at some point? It would be interesting to see how closely the real world numbers compare to the paper numbers.

Power gains aside, from what I've read it seems like the drop in stator temp/engine temp is documented and factual? That alone seems like it would be worth the change in the not-too-long run.

/\/\ac

I would only do the back to back dyno runs if Bruce can get a Dyno Deal at the 5th Annual GSR Western states Ralley.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?p=1220084&highlight=dyno#post1220084

There is no doubt alot of heat being generated in the stator with a SHUNT R/R so I'm sure there will be a perceptable hp recovery.

As a general statement, the SERIES R/R probably gets rid of 80%+ electrical/charging problems. The improved cooling, hp and fuel economy is due to the original problems of shunt control.

Thde original GSXR's put alternators on. This setup is more efficent than an alternator. The technology for solving this problem with an electrical device just has not existed before. At least not untill the last 3-5 years.

 

[posplayr]

I spent the afternoon and most of this evening doing these tests. Looks like the SERIES regulator reduces the power dissipation in the stator by about 3:1 as the current flow in the SERIES is about 27 amps compared to a maximum of 15 for the SERIES unit.

So other that the big Hp gain the Compu Fire does everything as promised. The reason there is not more heat lost in the FH012AA is the magnets saturate and can't create any more than 27 amps.

Stator Performance Summary

Here is a PDF with the gory details

http://www.posplayr.100megsfree3.com/FH012AA_Charging/SSR_vs_FH012AA.pdf

Good Luck.

 

[bwringer]

SCIENCE!

Thanks for checking all this, Pos. Now this all makes more sense.

So basically, it appears that using Compu-Fire R/R means about 10 less amps are wasted making heat in the stator. I like that. I like that a lot.

 

[ryonker]

To Measure Is To Know

This makes sense to me, and I am not that smart.

Thanks Pos!

Rick

 

[posplayr]

SCIENCE!

Thanks for checking all this, Pos. Now this all makes more sense.

So basically, it appears that using Compu-Fire R/R means about 10 less amps are wasted making heat in the stator. I like that. I like that a lot.

That is correct about the current, but what is more important is that with a FET SERIES R/R the stator has to dissipate nearly 3 times as much heat as with the Compu-Fire which is a SERIES R/R.

It is a little difficult getting at the power lost to heat when the SHUNT regulator shorts out (i.e. voltage goes to zero at the leads), but the current measurement should be accurate. So the calculations of total power are assuming 0.5 ohms of resistance which is about what I measured with an ohm meter. There is some reactance because I can see phase shift, but regardless we can make a accurate ratio assessment even if we don't know the absolute value of power.

For a Compu-fire SERIES R/R Power consumed in stator heat is 1/3 of the power consumed by the stator using a FET SHUNT R/R. This is the power and lack of cooling to the stator that causes the stators to fry.

There is additional power lost in heating the SHUNT R/R which is probably about 3 times the Compufire as well.

 

[Nessism]

Some interesting stuff there Jim. Thanks for putting this all together.

Unfortunately, my feeble mind doesn't understand a few thing: for one, the charging system is fed though a 15A fuse, so how come it doesn't blow if the stator produces 27A (I assume a normal stator produces a lower current but still above 15A)? Next thing I don't understand is how much power is used by the GS during normal running? It's been much discussed here how the GS charging system can barely keep up with itself, and can't cope very well with added running lights or heated clothing. If that's the case, how much extra current is the stator producing that needs to be shunted back into heat? I'm still trying to understand how much real world need there is for one of these R/R's if we are running a normal (not high output) stator.

 

[posplayr]

Some interesting stuff there Jim. Thanks for putting this all together.

Unfortunately, my feeble mind doesn't understand a few thing: for one, the charging system is fed though a 15A fuse, so how come it doesn't blow if the stator produces 27A (I assume a normal stator produces a lower current but still above 15A)?

15A is what comes out of the R/R. The 27 amps is what is running through the stator to generate the 15 amps. Anything in excess to the 15A is simply to generate heat to avoid sending it to the GS electical.

Imagine you want to dim the 120V lights in you office. So if you do it like a SHUNT R/R U would put two screwdrivers to your 120V wall outlet, if you momentarily short the screw drivers the lights will dim each time you touch the screw-drivers. The current is the wall climbs as it is a direct short. If it was not for the fuse box you would fry your wires in the wall.

In this analogy the house wiring is the stator
the screw drivers are the shunt R/R
the light is the GS load.

Next thing I don't understand is how much power is used by the GS during normal running? It's been much discussed here how the GS charging system can barely keep up with itself, and can't cope very well with added running lights or heated clothing.

Yes I have heard that as well. I think it is a mis perception due to low output at idle.

If that's the case, how much extra current is the stator producing that needs to be shunted back into heat?

Nothing needs to be shunted as was shown by the SERIES design. The minimum required is basically established by the SERIES regulator so anything the SHUNT is putting out above the SERIES is simply converted to heat. Approx 1.7 to 1 excess current and 3 to 1 excess power.

I'm still trying to understand how much real world need there is for one of these R/R's if we are running a normal (not high output) stator.

[/QUOTE]

Anyone burning up stators or having charging problems should get one. I would say by the time you burn up two stators you should definitely get one of these. Some might say after the first burnt stator :-\\\

 

[posplayr]

Install instructions here..................

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=161397

SHUNT_vs_SERIES_RR_Compare_Tutorial

 

[posplayr]

Some interesting stuff there Jim. Thanks for putting this all together.

Unfortunately, my feeble mind doesn't understand a few thing: for one, the charging system is fed though a 15A fuse, so how come it doesn't blow if the stator produces 27A (I assume a normal stator produces a lower current but still above 15A)? Next thing I don't understand is how much power is used by the GS during normal running? It's been much discussed here how the GS charging system can barely keep up with itself, and can't cope very well with added running lights or heated clothing. If that's the case, how much extra current is the stator producing that needs to be shunted back into heat? I'm still trying to understand how much real world need there is for one of these R/R's if we are running a normal (not high output) stator.

Better explaination

SHUNT_vs_SERIES_RR_Compare_Tutorial

 

[ryonker]

Thanks for the more basic tutorial.

What does Mosfet mean again?

I noticed another guy selling R/R kits and it was the FHO12AA model but he called it a Mosfet type R/R.

http://roadstercycle.com/Universal Mosfet FH012AA charging system upgrade.htm

Thanks!

Rick

 

[Calvin Blackmore]

Is he related to bobafet?

 

[posplayr]

Thanks for the more basic tutorial.

What does Mosfet mean again?

I noticed another guy selling R/R kits and it was the FHO12AA model but he called it a Mosfet type R/R.

http://roadstercycle.com/Universal Mosfet FH012AA charging system upgrade.htm

Thanks!

Rick

A MOSFET is basically a high powered 3 terminal switch device. It is normally operated fully open or fully closed. He is still talking about a FH012A which is FET (or MOSFET) based SHUNT type. The plots I provided are of that MOSFET unit as compared to the Compufire.

The Compufire is SERIES

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOSFET

 

[bwringer]

Pos, I'm very shaky on the theory of all this, but do you foresee any issues with switching speed at higher RPM, like, say, 9,000 RPM?

In other words, does the Series regulator have a "speed limit" on how fast it can react?