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Suzuki Bond #4, ThreeBond 1194/1184/1207B???

Nessism said:
The MLS gasket eliminates the need for the cam chain O-ring.
Click to expand...

Yes I do remember that, but I was wondering about the cylinder base o-rings, as the manual calls for a thin film of 1211 on those two o-rings.

The 1100g manual calls for 1207B on the case halves. Searching through for what it calls for on the base o-rings.
 
Chuck78 said:
Yes I do remember that, but I was wondering about the cylinder base o-rings, as the manual calls for a thin film of 1211 on those two o-rings.

The 1100g manual calls for 1207B on the case halves. Searching through for what it calls for on the base o-rings.
Click to expand...

My 1100G manual says 1215 on the crankcase halves. I don't seen any reference to sealer on the base O-rings either. What pages are you finding this info on? The sealer info is on 3-53.
 
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That's in the early '77 gs750 manual to use 1211 on the cylinder base o-rings. In the 2nd gs1100g manual linked on bike cliff's page (the smaller 40kb pdf with more models listed), it somehow skips from installing the pistons to the rods & installing rings, all the way to putting the head on & torquing! Not a missing page, but zero mention of installing the cylinders over the pistons OR the base orings! I downloaded the larger (1st) gs1100g manual to browse for this purpose, since I'll be using that 73mm bore gs1100g mls head gasket on my 72mm bore gs750 w/850 block.
 
Chuck78 said:
Why did you stop using 1194/1184? I take it in your rigorously ran race engines, you have had those leak on you? Do they not solidify completely, compared to the silicone based 1207B?

Looking to order one or the other and some 1211 ASAP. building a second (4'x8') workbench tonight to begin the teardown process of two donor engines to combine the best parts of the bottom ends with the bored out 850 cylinders and a nice fresh head (start next week). Thanks everyone.
Click to expand...

The 1207B is the only thing I have ever used as it is what the 1100 & 1150 manuals call for for the case halves. It takes so LITTLE an amount to seal the cases that a 20 dollar tube lasts a long time. I have NEVER had a set of cases leak with that sealer & no issues of it going into the motor. I even had to split the cases on a hot motor at the races once to replace a broken trans & fired it up again right after putting it back together without a leak.
Ray.
 
#1211 (White) Silicon Liquid Gasket - High grade silicon liquid gasket used by many OEM’s in aluminum case assembly. 1211 is tack free in 90 minutes and fully cured in 24 hours.
#1207B (Black) Quick Dry Silicon Gasket - Crankcase sealer for large gaps, sheet metal, tough to seal areas, and vertical applications.1207B is tack free in 5 minutes and fully cured in 24 hours.


There is a HUGE difference in setup time I just realized... Looks like 1211 & 1207B are basically the same thing except that 1211 sets up on 90 minutes and is good for 250 degrees Celsius, and 1207B sets up in FIVE minutes and is good for 200 degrees Celsius.

Maybe I might as well just go for 1211 all around? I see people raving about it as case sealer on many forums. If it were better than 1207B, however, why didnt Suzuki just spec 1211?

I also read on a Kawi forum that their manual says to have all bolts layed out in order as you apply the case sealer, as the sealer (1194?) had to be fully torqued down in 20 minutes.
 
The original case sealer for my GS1000EC is P/N 99000-31030 which according to this webpage is Threebond 1104. http://wodocs.com/docum/204-suzuki-2002_oil_chemicals-4.html
The replacement number for it (Suzuki bond #4/Threebond 1104) as far as I can tell is P/N 99104-31140 which is Threebond 1207B.

Threebond 1104 is good up to 150? C

Threebond 1207B is good up to 250? C (??)

http://www.nzgaskets.co.nz/ThreeBondProducts.aspx

Edit... Somehow or another as Ed said, there was a Threebond 1201 thrown in there as well. (P/N 99104-31100)
 
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I use the 1207B. And as Ray said..it takes just the thinnest smear to seal the cases. Last tube i got was like 27 and change.
 
Bumping this back just for kicks...

Bought some 1207B because it's black. Working on a black engine and don't want white/gray 1184 sealer squeezing out and looking unsightly. Great selection criteria eh?

BTW, when cleaning up the inside of my KZ750 engine couldn't help but notice that the original sealer was black silicone. Pretty sure it's 1207B. Some people get all up in arms when silicone is suggested, but the OEM's apparently don't have an issue with the stuff.
 
I have 5 new tubes of 1207B I just got that I can sell, shipped to you, for 22 bucks a tube if you are in the 48 USA.
Ray.
 
I have been investigating what liquids/sealants I should get as I am getting going on my 'restoration'. One thing I see on ThreeBond's site regarding 1207B vs 1194:

ThreeBond 1194 is a semidrying liquid gasket whose major component is special synthetic rubber. After it is applied and dried, it will form a rubber-like elastic body. Since it excels in padding property, it shows a high sealing effect on bonded surfaces that have poor flatness and large clearance. (Bullets mention padding, vibration, and impact benefits).

1207B Non solvent type silicone-based. (Less description, more bullets, including):

*Dries quickly and offers excellent pressure resistance immediately after applying and assembling.
*Does not corrode copper and copperbased alloys.
*Cures even if it is left at high temperature of 120?C in uncured state.


So, it sounds to me like the 1207B is more like a traditional liquid gasket, where a small amount is applied to the mating surfaces just before assembly, and the bulk of the sealing is done by metal contact with the liquid gasket filling the voids. The 1194 is applied to a surface and allowed to cure, and operates more like a rubber or traditional non-liquid gasket where the metal surfaces are not in contact/sealing.
 
I use Permatex 97. I've never had problems, even glued the two engine halves together with it. As long as the surface is prepped I think it's fine.
 
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Getting ready to put a Kawasaki engine together and they supply TB 1105B if you order "Liquid Gasket" through a dealership. I found a datasheet for this material and on the bottom in the footer it references 1104, so I assume these materials are identical. http://www.techsil.co.uk/media/pdf/TDS/TBSI19016-tds.pdf

So it seems we have 1105, 1104, 1194 (obsolete), and 1184, sharing a similar "synthetic rubber" chemistry. I think this is the stuff most people associate with Threebond sealers, and sold as Suzukibond, Hondabond, Yamabond, Kawabond, etc. Working time is about 15 mins for 1104/1105 and 5 mins for 1184.

Then we have the 1207B silicone sealer. Black in color so good for black engines. Basically high grade RTV. The temperature range for this stuff is 250C compared to 150C for the 1100 family of sealers. Working time of 5 mins, so you better work fast. Being RTV you want to make sure to not use too much of this stuff or squeeze-out chunks may find their way into an oil galley someway.

No clue which is better but think the 1100 family products, particularly the 1104/1105 stuff, gives you a longer working time, might be better for those of us that shouldn't hurry.
 
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Just finished assembling the bottom end on my KZ using 1207B and I won't be using it again. The build went fine, and since it's black the ooze out doesn't show. It's the ooze out that's the concern though. This stuff is simply RTV. Save your money and get a tube of Permatex Ultra Black if you indeed want RTV. I was pretty careful to not use too much but regardless, there was ooze out that breaks off pretty easily (although it might harden up more with time). I reached inside the engine through the oil pan and was able to remove most of the ooze out bead so not worried about any issues. When using Threebond 1100 series synthetic rubber sealer this issue doesn't exist though. Wish they made a black version.
 
1207B is NOT simply rtv. And if you don't put too much on, the squeeze out is minimal. It is what is recommended by SUZUKI for sealing case halves on 1100s & 1150s & after more than 30 years of using it I have had no issues using it. It seals perfectly, without leaks & if applied correctly works very well. Are you sure you didn't use too much?
Ray.
 
I enquired about threebond 1207 in a local bike shop. The reaction was, ' Oh the good stuff, very expensive. We wouldn't stick a customer for a whole tube of that'
Anyway they loaned me the tube from the workshop and asked for a small donation to their Lifeboats box for the amount I used.
I used the thinnest possible skin of it as an assembly adhesive for the chain tunnel o ring.
My first rebuild back in the 70s I seized a cam on a CB200 using a Hylomar type thing too close to gallery risers so I'm a bit shy of using anything like that.
 
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rapidray said:
1207B is NOT simply rtv. And if you don't put too much on, the squeeze out is minimal. It is what is recommended by SUZUKI for sealing case halves on 1100s & 1150s & after more than 30 years of using it I have had no issues using it. It seals perfectly, without leaks & if applied correctly works very well. Are you sure you didn't use too much?
Ray.
Click to expand...

Well Ray, from the threebond website:

Threebond 1200 series: Silicone-based liquid adhesives...

Silicone adhesive = RTV

With hindsight I'd say I used a little too much since there was a visible ooze out bead in places. A thin bead was applied to one case half and then an acid brush was used with a dabbing motion to distribute the sealer evenly. 1207B dries fast; you are supposed to assemble the surfaces within 5 mins. I was afraid of the stuff setting up before getting the screws all snugged up.

The Threebond 1100 series liquid gasket products have a more creamy consistency. It spreads smoother and the ooze out doesn't form a bead which can break off. There is a distinct difference between this stuff and the 1200. As far as I'm concerned the only reason to use the 1207B is if you have a black engine.
 
I've always used Gaskasinch with good results... it's more of a rubber cement than a silicon.
 
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