switch to synthetic oil?

[Anonymous]

Here's a wrinkle to the synthetic vs. regular debate. I am a believer in Mobil 1 myself. But the mechanic that I had rebuild my 850 is dead set against synthetics because he says that they do not absorb heat as well as regular oil. The oil runs cooler, but the metal runs hotter. Regular oil breaks down sooner because it has been taking more heat from the metal.

I have never heard of this elsewhere, but it doesn't sound completely illogical when you think about it. When we say that the engine is running cooler, it is the oil that is in the engine that is being reported on the temprature guage. The metal could actually be hotter.

This mechanic is not a rookie. He worked on GS's when they were new. We have a lot of technically savvy members on the forum. What say ye?

Synthetic gets good marks because it retains viscosity over over more miles. But what if that is because it restricts the amount of heat it will pull from the metal sur e usually

I'm not buying it! As to mechanics and their opinions on all things mechanical, many have parroted stuff to me over the years that I knew to be false based on my previous research or reading authoritative sources. Most of the well-meaning motorcycle mechanics I've met over the years have been adamant in saying that anything but motorcycle specific oil would ruin my bike engines and wet clutches. I know that not to be true! Many could have been reading the advertising text right off the oil bottle. Their firmly held opinion was based on what they believed to be true simply because some mentor had told them the same thing, despite neither party having done any research at all!

These are the universal truths (quite separate from any dubious advertising claims) that cause me to use synthetic oil in my air-cooled motorcycles:
Synthetic oils resist viscosity breakdown caused by mechanical shearing much better by reason of their chemistry. Heat-related breakdown occurs at significantly higher temperatures than with conventional oils. Synthetic oils are slipperier, and so less frictional heat is generated.

I don't use synthetic oils in my water-cooled autos for reasons of cost.

I use 15W-50 synthetic CAR oil in my motorcycles 'cause it's the perfect viscosity mix for my warm/hot three-season riding, particularly in stop 'n go conditions in summer heat.

I use Mobil-1 15W-50 synthetic CAR oil because it costs only $4.50 USD a quart at the local Canadian Walmart. Mobil-1 is a quality product, but price and availability sell the product. The cheapest conventional motorcycle oil I can buy locally is about $2.50 USD, and that is 10W-40.

 

[Anonymous]

I use 15W-50 synthetic CAR oil in my motorcycles 'cause it's the perfect viscosity mix for my warm/hot three-season riding, particularly in stop 'n go conditions in summer heat.

I use Mobil-1 15W-50 synthetic CAR oil because it costs only $4.50 USD a quart at the local Canadian Walmart. Mobil-1 is a quality product, but price and availability sell the product. The cheapest conventional motorcycle oil I can buy locally is about $2.50 USD, and that is 10W-40.

I use either a 5W-50 or 15W-50 synthetic car oil, whichever is priced best at the time. Stores seem to have clearance specials every so often on old stock for a real bargin. Sometimes you can do a better deal for 2x5 litres - same stuff works in the car.

 

[Anonymous]

have to agree with the pro synthetic lobby on this one you also get the best smelling bike around
ozman

 

[Anonymous]

have to agree with the pro synthetic lobby on this one you also get the best smelling bike around
ozman

Wall Mart USA seems to have put 15-50 mobile one int an almost likable price range. They have a 5 US-qt container for $18.88 USD i believe. It seems that it is the standard price now. Maybe other syntecs will follow suit???

 

[Anonymous]

$18,88 for a 5quart?

Say, that is a good price. Not to say great price compared to the prices here in Sweden. The range on good synthetic oils varies around $10-15 per quart.....
I use the best, as I am concerned, oil there is....RED LINE 20w-50 that is temperature stabil well above ather brands. The clutch and gearbox works great and if the viscosity is too high for some, the same oil comes in 5w-30, 10w-40, 15w-50 and 20w-50.
One bother though. It doesn?t excuse an old and worn engine as consumption goes through the roof However that is how i discovered mine was and I replaced pistons and rings ending the consumption almost totally. On our engines the consumption is the biggest around the pistons and rings since the clearances between cylinder and piston is larger than a water cooleed engine.

 

[AOD]

mechanics want you to use non synthetic oil because it keeps them in business.

here is the report i did for any of you with sometime. the powerpoint presentation is more of a 'summary' of things. the report itself has some stories and more data and graphs.

http://aod.no-ip.com/files/school/423 final presentation.ppt

http://aod.no-ip.com/files/school/R...or Oil Compared to Conventional Motor Oil.doc

both of these are written by me, from collective research.

Slowpoke, is 15W-50 safe for our bikes in summer driving?

~Adam

 

[Anonymous]

The one question I really have nagging at me in all of these discussions is this: Why are some having problems with clutches and some are not? I am the first to embrace an improvement for any of my equipment. But the last thing I can afford is to have to replace clutch plates since I have to have the bike for 120 miles a day commute. Maybe someone can enlighten if there is any definitive proof that you can or can't use synthetic oils without damage. I'm not trying to start an argument, just can't afford to throw away money. By the by, sure hope you got an "A" on the paper. It was a good read, especially for the layman!

 

[AOD]

thanks, i did get an A in the class.

as for whether synthetics will work for you...well its something you need to try. everyones clutch condition is different. the reason there is a problem sometimes with the clutch is because its a wet clutch setup and synthetic is more slippery, the clutch may slip more...

i think it something you could drive with if you had to...to test out the oil. if you have problems, swap back.

since no big weekend plans are shaping up, i think i'm going to devote some time to the bike, and swap to synthetics, then take it for a long cruise.

~Adam

 

[lhanscom]

But the last thing I can afford is to have to replace clutch plates since I have to have the bike for 120 miles a day commute.

Just in case you haven't looked. Even if all the bad that has ever been said about auto oil and motorcycle clutches was true, and you burnt thru your clutch in record time. You would only be down $50 and an hour of your time to put in a new clutch.
In reality, you would notice your clutch misbehaving, and would have to change your oil again.
I have run Synthetic in my 700 with no problems with my clutch. That's a 100mi a day commute and about 30 trips down the dragstrip.

 

[Anonymous]

The one question I really have nagging at me in all of these discussions is this: Why are some having problems with clutches and some are not?

A better question is: WHO are these people having trouble with their clutches? In all cases so far, people tell me about their friend having trouble with a clutch (often the same friend who worked as a nurse at the hospital where Richard Gere visited and ...).

Make sure you get specific advice as to whether a particular oil is clutch safe. Typically, if the oil doesn't have an "energy conserving" symbol/label on the bottle you'll be safe. Despite all rumors to the contrary, I still haven't seen that notation on a bottle of oil with a viscosity over 30 weight. Remember that oil treatments (most are "snake-oil" - read the INDEPENDENT research) are not oil.

As lhanscom wrote earlier, if it ruined your clutch and an oil change wouldn't solve the problem, clutches and clutch work are relatively cheap. Much cheaper than a lifetime of paying for too-expensive motorcycle oil!

 

[KEITH KRAUSE]

I have a question about the rating of oils, SG,SH,etc. I have a '79 GS1000 and 3 years ago I read about motor oils at this site. It recommends using oil rated no higher than "SG' on some older bikes. Any oil rated higher will actually make the bearings slip instead of roll on my roller bearing crank. A higher rated oil is just too slippery. I have stayed with this advice. Is this still true? Thanks.

 

[Anonymous]

I have a question about the rating of oils, SG,SH,etc. I have a '79 GS1000 and 3 years ago I read about motor oils at this site. It recommends using oil rated no higher than "SG' on some older bikes. Any oil rated higher will actually make the bearings slip instead of roll on my roller bearing crank. A higher rated oil is just too slippery. I have stayed with this advice. Is this still true? Thanks.

No, it's not true. Of course I have to say that intuitively, because there won't have been any studies on such a proposition. However, if there is so little friction present that your bearings won't roll, you're not going to see any wear occur in any case!
My 1100 uses a roller bearing crank, and I'd bet my life that my SL oil will not harm the bearings in any fashion. There haven't been any giant leaps in lubricity: Rather, improvements are incremental, and it's likely new grades sometimes reflect differing additive packages that address concerns other than lubricity.

 

[saaz]

I don't think the oil too slippery problem exists. The main thing to avoid is energy conserving oils with friction modifiers - usually 10W-30 oils (starburst symbol). Anything rated above 40 weight should be ok, but I think someone said recently some of those oils may be friction modified, so look at the packet.

Older bikes with seals a bit hard may leak with synthetic oil, but this is more to do with synthetics cleaning out the internals better, removing all that gunge that stops leaks.

If you do a search on oil there has been much discussion in recent times. Use a good oil and change it whne you should. I don't know whether the main advantage of synthetics, extended oil changes, can be realised on air cooled motors (or most bikes really) as they tend to stress the oil a bit more, ie run hotter. Synthetics do tend to keep a bit longer in use, but not all are necessarily better tha mineral oils.

No definite answers here..all depends

 

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Thanks for the replies. I don't mind "limiting" my choice of oil by staying with the SG rating. But what bothers me is only a few brands are available with this rating at the bike shops and none at the auto parts stores. So if they stop making it, then I would have to change. This also makes me wonder, if the higher rated oil is so much more advanced in lubrication qualities, then why do they still bother to make the SG rated oil? Could it be that it really IS better for roller bearing cranks or "older" engine designs? And by the way, before I ever read the oil section at this site,I used Castrol GTX 20/50 for many years and I think it was rated SJ in '99. I had Vance&Hines completely re-build my motor. It did have 106,000 miles on it, but I don't ride that hard, just average. When I got an estimate to re-build it(before actual inspection) they said the cranks are very durable and that I should'nt need to repair it. Well, the main bearings were shot,( I saw for myself) and I ended up having it sent out to weld and true it. I don't know if I can blame the Castrol for this, but after reading about oil here it did make me wonder. On the other hand, I did get 106,000 miles and it was still running "OK", just making some noises and a bit of smoke on cold mornings.What do you think?

 

[redliner1973]

I think if you got 106k out of an air-cooled motor you got your moneys worth. However, at least on auto's, main bearing failure is usually attributed to low-rpm heavy loads, such as lugging the engine, or using too high of a gear when accelerating. I still think you did good on it. :twisted:

 

[Anonymous]

I think if you got 106k out of an air-cooled motor you got your moneys worth. However, at least on auto's, main bearing failure is usually attributed to low-rpm heavy loads, such as lugging the engine, or using too high of a gear when accelerating. I still think you did good on it. :twisted:

I'd agree. Although some bikes will go well beyond 106k, that is a very respectable figure. Remember, it was still running when you chose to rebuild it. Lots of well-maintained 20-year-old water-cooled autos with 106,000 miles make noises and smoke! Are you certain that the smoke on cold mornings was burning oil? If it was temperature dependent, it was more likely condensation or related to carburation on a cold bike!

I assume you were the original owner of the bike, otherwise you can't draw ANY conclusions from your experience because you don't know what lack of care or abuse it may have suffered earlier.

Anyway, folks either have to accept the dogma of the motorcycle oil manufacturers (unsupported by any offer of proof) or accept the experience of those of us who didn't believe it. I know that my best advice is given free! Are you gonna' trust the corporations? Remember, cigarettes don't cause cancer!!!!!!! 8O

 

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Al. The smoke at cold starts was oil burning but it went away in a minute,no big deal.I had no idea the crank was going bad,the bike made several noises but nothing to stop her. I have not checked lately but 3 years ago, this site had an article about GS's with roller bearing cranks. It was under the heading:" Everything you ever wanted to know about oil" or something like that. It got fairly technical and said these engines should not use any oil rated above 'SG'. So I just jumped into this topic wondering if that article is still "up to date"? This topic was actually about synthetics vs regular oil,so I apologize if it's trailing off.
By the way, I am the original owner. I bought her for my 23rd B-day. I did a ground up restoration 4 years ago. I invested $10,000 in her. $5300 of which went into the motor by Vance&Hines. If you want a perfect restoration it's expensive. There were "sentimental" reasons,plus I just did'nt care too much for the new bikes(although I do like the Kawasaki ZRX1200 that has since come out.) I may buy one and "semi-retire" my GS. But I do have a bike that is much better than new with all the upgrades.She's at 118,000 now, 12,000 since the re-build. Check out my website if you like.

 

[Anonymous]

Check out my website if you like.

It sounds like a fabulous restoration. Would you provide the link again, here? Thanks.

 

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Here you go:

http://home.comcast.net/~keith.krause/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html

Hope that helps...I thought to visit someones website, you just click on the www icon below?

 

[Anonymous]

Here you go:

http://home.comcast.net/~keith.krause/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html

Hope that helps...I thought to visit someones website, you just click on the www icon below?

I'll know for next time!