Top End Noob

[Nessism]

An insert may make the plug run a little hotter but who cares? Just as long as the plug doesn't foul out it's not factor. Threaded inserts in cylinder heads are very common and I've never heard about anyone having troubles, other than sometimes the inserts pull out.

As far as chips falling onto the cylinder causing troubles, this is unlikely unless a whole lot of chips fall in. Grease the tap and only a minimal number of chips will make their way inside.

All this said, MisterCinders needs to decide how far he wants to go with fixing the engine. Simply installing the insert back in place might be all that's necessary, or maybe the cylinder/rings are trashed. Hard to say for sure. Personally, I'd try the easy route first and see how it turns out. You can always pull the head if necessary at a later time.

 

[Graham]

An insert may make the plug run a little hotter but who cares? Just as long as the plug doesn't foul out it's not factor. Threaded inserts in cylinder heads are very common and I've never heard about anyone having troubles, other than sometimes the inserts pull out.

As far as chips falling onto the cylinder causing troubles, this is unlikely unless a whole lot of chips fall in. Grease the tap and only a minimal number of chips will make their way inside.

All this said, MisterCinders needs to decide how far he wants to go with fixing the engine. Simply installing the insert back in place might be all that's necessary, or maybe the cylinder/rings are trashed. Hard to say for sure. Personally, I'd try the easy route first and see how it turns out. You can always pull the head if necessary at a later time.

Too hot of a plug can cause a hole in the piston.
If you do it right the first time you won?t have to do it again later.

 

[MisterCinders]

With a break in the bitter cold, I managed to pull the cylinder head off so I replace or repair.

I cannot get the cylinder to lift off for the life of me. What tricks or techniques will help pull that bad boy off?

 

[Nessism]

Too hot of a plug can cause a hole in the piston.
If you do it right the first time you won?t have to do it again later.

Honestly now, there are literally millions of aluminum cylinder heads with an insert or two installed and they don't hole pistons just like that. Go one range cooler on that plug if you can't sleep otherwise.

 

[Graham]

With a break in the bitter cold, I managed to pull the cylinder head off so I replace or repair.

I cannot get the cylinder to lift off for the life of me. What tricks or techniques will help pull that bad boy off?

Just removed my top-end and trick is a little tapping and prying. Be sure all the bolts are out and the head studs are clean.

Honestly now, there are literally millions of aluminum cylinder heads with an insert or two installed and they don't hole pistons just like that. Go one range cooler on that plug if you can't sleep otherwise.

I’ve seen 3 plug inserts installed (all had problems) in 27 years of motorcycle repair. Where did the 1000000 come from?

 

[haztoys]

45 years old ...Mechanic sents age 8 working with a famliy member resorting old aircraft ...Never had any other job then making motors run ... Did a time fixing bikes and worked for US Suzuki too.. Raced all over the world ... At a point in my life I can and no get a crazy $um of money to do a motor or restore/mod a toy ... I turn down more work then I do ...
I'm at a point of the last toy is almost done ... And being courted for my next job/toy that the time table is in years to get done ..I fix thing not replace parts ...


That said

A Helicoil is fine ... As in heat tranfer ... I'm sure in my years of playing with motors who knows how may I've installed .. Very few have problem ...

Tip on installing a helicoil in a plug hole ... Say its #1 your helicoiling ...Get some help ...One guy pumps the ex pipe with air ..As you turn the motor over as #1 ex valve opens up the air will blow "out" the spark plug hole ... Grease the helicoil tap too .. As you retap the hole the chips will blow "out" the hole and not fall into the motor ...If its a two piper on the ex with a cross over you need to plug the other pipe...Leave the other spark plugs in the other cylinders to keep them air tight ..

Install the helicoil and run it ... Find a nother head and at some point when you want to mod your bike install the new head ..

Sorry Graham ...

David

Hazardous Toys inc

 

[Graham]

45 years old ...Mechanic sents age 8 working with a famliy member resorting old aircraft ...Never had any other job then making motors run ... Did a time fixing bikes and worked for US Suzuki too.. Raced all over the world ... At a point in my life I can and no get a crazy $um of money to do a motor or restore/mod a toy ... I turn down more work then I do ...
I'm at a point of the last toy is almost done ... And being courted for my next job/toy that the time table is in years to get done ..I fix thing not replace parts ...


That said

A Helicoil is fine ... As in heat tranfer ... I'm sure in my years of playing with motors who knows how may I've installed .. Very few have problem ...

Tip on installing a helicoil in a plug hole ... Say its #1 your helicoiling ...Get some help ...One guy pumps the ex pipe with air ..As you turn the motor over as #1 ex valve opens up the air will blow "out" the spark plug hole ... Grease the helicoil tap too .. As you retap the hole the chips will blow "out" the hole and not fall into the motor ...If its a two piper on the ex with a cross over you need to plug the other pipe...Leave the other spark plugs in the other cylinders to keep them air tight ..

Install the helicoil and run it ... Find a nother head and at some point when you want to mod your bike install the new head ..

Sorry Graham ...

David

Hazardous Toys inc

You are preferential mechanic since the age of 8? Wasn?t there child labor laws? So what, I was mechanical back in the 70s too. It?s not like I?d put that on a r?sum?.

Tip on installing a Helicoil in a sparkplug hole. Do it and put a 100 miles on it and let us know how it worked. Then we?ll know who?s right.


Crazy Carl's
http://www.panhandlepowersports.com/

 

[Nessism]

Timeserts are the preferred method to repair Ford Triton V8 engines which are famous for damaged spark plug threads. Ford Motor Company would not specify this method if there was risk of holed pistons.

Timeserts are superior to helicoils for this kind of application since they don't pull back out when the plugs are removed at a later time. Helicoil brand sells solid inserts in addition to the traditional coiled wire inserts, which while not as nice as the Timeserts, they are better than regular helicoils for spark plug thread repair in my opinion.

Another things that's no major worry is the chips that fall into the cylinder. Blow them out, suck them out with a vacuum cleaner, grease the tap, etc. All valid methods to replace the spark plug threads without pulling the head.

Find something else to worry about.

 

[TSCC]

Known Issues:

A PO botched a spark-plug expansion on the No. 3 cylinder such that the expander is forever grafted to the plug instead of the cylinder head. Even if the bike were running flawlessly, I need to pull the head to rehab that expansion. I have the Sav-A-Thread kit for this, but cannot do the work with the head in place, or metal bits will fall into the engine.

Of course, the engine does not run flawlessly. The No. 3 plug shows oil-fouling, so something is up in there. It also idles a bit rough, even after much trial-and-error in jetting and carb cleaning, and I think that No. 3 cylinder is a culprit. I could not get a compression test because the tool will not thread into the badly expanded plug hole. It almost fits, but not quite.

Opinions and Preferences, although these work well for this fellow. And the pics are nice.

< TimeSert > <------------- Click

 

[haztoys]

You are preferential mechanic since the age of 8? Wasn?t there child labor laws? So what, I was mechanical back in the 70s too. It?s not like I?d put that on a r?sum?.

Tip on installing a Helicoil in a sparkplug hole. Do it and put a 100 miles on it and let us know how it worked. Then we?ll know who?s right.

LOL...Oh Graham your ego is killing me ...Your rant of the "27 years" as a motorcycle mechanic was ..What ...???

Child labor laws...... Had an Uncle that was one of "Watson Wizzer's" and would go help him after school ..Lots of kids help in famliy shops..

Resume....With my skills and back ground the last resume I filled out was 20 years ago ... I dont have to at this point trust me ...And good thing I started at 8 it was the best thing I ever did..

Graham please dont get up set because people dont see it your way ...
And I'm sorry you have had bad luck with Helicoil's ...

And at times helicoils and Timeserts do not work out right ...At times ..
Lifes a crap shoot...

Have a good day

 

[Graham]

LOL...Oh Graham your ego is killing me ...Your rant of the "27 years" as a motorcycle mechanic was ..What ...???

I was telling how few inserts are in heads for the amount of motorcycles a person would repair in a 27year career.

Child labor laws...... Had an Uncle that was one of "Watson Wizzer's" and would go help him after school ..Lots of kids help in famliy shops..

I worked at my dad's shop back then too. Who cares.

Resume....With my skills and back ground the last resume I filled out was 20 years ago ... I dont have to at this point trust me ...And good thing I started at 8 it was the best thing I ever did..

Good for you.

Graham please dont get up set because people dont see it your way ...

I'm not. Are you?

And I'm sorry you have had bad luck with Helicoil's ...

I don't.

And at times helicoils and Timeserts do not work out right ...At times ..

They work right for me. I just don't use them for sparkplug repair.

Lifes a crap shoot...

Not mine.

Like I posted; just run an insert in a Suzuki GS sparkplug hole for 100 mile and see.

Have a good day

You too.

 

[andrewm]

Had a good shop put a helicoil on a sparkplug hole on my gs750 at the start of last season. Only put about 5000km on it last year but there haven't been any issues with it so far.

 

[MisterCinders]

So I picked up the gaskets to rebuild this thing. Clymers says to use "Suzuki Bond No. 1211 or equivalent" with the gaskets.

What is an equivalent bonding agent?

TIA

 

[exploited789]

Sorry not trying to thread jack, but I'm doing currently replacing the head gasket on a 77 gs750 (all oem gaskets) and was also curious if i need some type of gasket sealer.

Thanks.

 

[Nessism]

You do not need any sealer on the gaskets. I don't know why Clymer's suggests such as thing. And there has been lots of negative feedback about non-stock gaskets/seals. Suzuki gaskets are expensive, but far more reliable than non-stock gaskets such as Athena.

 

[MisterCinders]

Ugh, I just bought the Athena set.

IIRC, the Clymer instruction focuses on the O-Ring in the middle of the cylinder. That is where Clymer suggests using the 1211 Bond.

 

[Nessism]

Ugh, I just bought the Athena set.

IIRC, the Clymer instruction focuses on the O-Ring in the middle of the cylinder. That is where Clymer suggests using the 1211 Bond.

The base gasket is the prime offender with the Athena gasket kit; the green gasket material can't take the clamp load of a cylinder head so it extrudes out of position under the cylinder. If you get a stock base gasket to supplement the Athena kit it might be worth the gamble. Just be sure to check the torque at regular intervals during engine break-in to make sure the head nuts are tight.

 

[hampshirehog]

Just to add some meat and some confusion to Ed's post on Athena gaskets....

I would still use them.....in the UK. Maybe we've got different stock, I don't know, but I've not had any problems with them. On the other hand, Ed put a base gasket on his GS1000 and from the photos he posted I would suggest that you can buy better stuff for wiping your backside.

The gasket material is certainly different to OEM - which feels and looks more like very thin lino. Pass on what OEM costs over there - if the base gasket is only a tenner or so I'd buy one. If you've got rip off Britain spreading it's evil money grabbing ways I might also be tempted to buy the right gasket material and use your Athena one as a template.

 

[mike_of_bbg]

Yes it's good to use Threebond on that rectangular o-ring so it doesn't get out of place during the head installation (it's not really for "sealing" the o-ring per se). You want to let it set and get tacky. I've heard tales told too of people soaking them in hot water for a little while so they lose any natural curvature from the packaging.

Please do listen to Ed. Base gaskets are cheap. Perhaps my Athena head gasket would not have weeped oil if I'd used an OEM base gasket.

 

[exploited789]

Awesome, thank you for all the quick replies =]