Transmission/Drivetrain issues....

[bluedawgie]

Well, I managed to pull the rear wheel. That went fairly well. I did have a little bit of an issue with the height of the rear fender when trying to remove the tire. I ended up putting a floor jack under the center stand, raising it up, and sliding a couple of 2x4's I had handily laying around, under the stand. That was only real issue, oh....along with having to go purchase a 12 pt. 24 mm. closed end wrench to remove the axle retaining nut on the left side. My standard set only went up to 21 mm. The splined gears looked good. Blew them off with air, and sprayed some degreaser on them to clean them up. No missing teeth on either side. I tried to move the driveshaft, but it still only moved just slightly. Guess it's time to move on up the shaft area. I'm thinking about separating the drive train at the rubber protective boot area. If it moves freely after that, then the issue is most likely within the transmission somewhere. Oh, I didn't take apart the rear hub assembly. Curious as to what's in there. <g>

 

[rustybronco]

Take the three nuts and washers off the rear differential, then remove it. it should take you all of 5 minutes. keeping mindful of all the spacers in there proper order. then you will be able to turn the input and see if the driven gear (the thing that drives the spline) rotates smoothly.

there also is a small vent hole on the wheel side of the differential near the top. fluid will leak out of it if the differential is turned upside down.

did you inspect the rear wheel bearings for smoothness of rotation?

 

[bluedawgie]

Thanks, Rusty.....I was reading my service manual last night about the rear hub and drive train assembly and it made me a little nervous. I realize I'm simply looking for the "bind" in the mechanism, but it was talking about different shim measurements, gear meshing tolerances, and so on.
Honestly, it was a little intimidating. I think partly was because it was getting to be late, and I was tired. Then my wife, bless her heart, is saying, just take it to the shop and let HIM fix it. Reminds me back to the story of Adam and Eve in the garden....with Eve tempting Adam to give in to temptation.:twistedevil: Well, I'm pressing onward. My thinking is if I really "bugger" this up, my mechanic is gonna get a basket full of parts from a guy with a silly embarrassing grin on his face...lol.
I remember when I was trying to change the fuel pump on our Dodge Intrepid. I told my auto mechanic about it. He said, "You've got guts, buddy...'cause even I don't like to do THAT" I replied...."I prefer to call it just stubborn foolishness...lol" Well, thanks again for your input. Hopefully, someday I'll be able to help someone else on here with similar problems.
Oh, btw....I mentioned earlier about buying a backup bike....I couldn't believe the ad that I saw....something's gotta be wrong here.
http://wisconsin.freecycleshopper.com/motorcycles-and-parts/1987-suzuki-cavalcade-1400.html I'm at least going to inquire about it.

 

[rustybronco]

Thanks, Rusty.....I was reading my service manual last night about the rear hub and drive train assembly and it made me a little nervous. I realize I'm simply looking for the "bind" in the mechanism, but it was talking about different shim measurements, gear meshing tolerances, and so on.
Honestly, it was a little intimidating. I think partly was because it was getting to be late, and I was tired. Then my wife, bless her heart, is saying, just take it to the shop and let HIM fix it.

Those shims are inside the "third member" (engine>trans>axle). those shims have nothing to do with removal of the rear differential. all you are doing is removing the rear diff's attaching hardware (three nuts and washers), then pulling it rearward off the drive shaft. the drive shaft has a male spline which goes into the female spline of the diff.

to re-install it, wipe a little silicone sealer on the front where it meets the swing arm, grease the splines and bolt 'er back up...

The splined gears looked good. Blew them off with air, and sprayed some degreaser on them to clean them up. No missing teeth on either side.

Can you see the complete length of the teeth?

if the diff checks out Okay, leave off the diff and un-clamp the drive shaft boot.

 

[tom203]

Don't get intimidated by shims and gear meshing stuff at this point- you're looking for something obvious! You can fine tune it later! We're all here to help- the combined experience will guide you. Relax, let's find out what part failed before we drag the bike off.
You said it in your first post- wear and tear! Thirty year olds need maintenance- I know I did at that age!

 

[bluedawgie]

Oakley, dokley....I managed to pull off the "pumpkin" differential hub assembly....and I rotated the spline gear....it does not bind. At first I was kinda hopeful,
because it didn't at first, but I gave it a little better squeeze with my fingers and it started to rotate freely. Well, I guess we'll just move on up the drivetrain. I'm going to disconnect the boot next, as instructed. Should I remove the swing arm to get a better look at it?

 

[tom203]

Oakley, dokley....I managed to pull off the "pumpkin" differential hub assembly....and I rotated the spline gear....it does not bind. At first I was kinda hopeful,
because it didn't at first, but I gave it a little better squeeze with my fingers and it started to rotate freely. Well, I guess we'll just move on up the drivetrain. I'm going to disconnect the boot next, as instructed. Should I remove the swing arm to get a better look at it?

Gung ho! allright! While you're pulling stuff off, make sure that however the bike is being supported stays nice and safe!
You described a ticking ? noise before this lockup, but the noise went away at a stoplight, then returned just before the grand finale. Sounds like output shaft or bevel gear stuff, but I 've yet to open one of these up, but others have and will offer guidance shortly. Good job!

 

[bluedawgie]

Thanks, Tom......sometimes I tend to get a little impatient with my work.
When I was trying to get the back wheel off, I had a clearance issue and had to raise the bike up about 4 inches. This method is definitely not recommended, but it's what I had at the time. I used the small car hydraulic floor under the center stand, with one hand steadying the bike, and the other pumping the jack, while squatting. Definitely not the safest way to do that! I had a couple of small cut pieces of 2"x4" that I slid under each foot. Whew! I got the wheel out, lifted it a little, took the wood pieces back out. It is now back on the floor, with a plastic cooler supporting one side in the rear for stability. I was thinking about getting one of those cheap Sears motorcycle stands. I guess they normally run about $120. For now, I just kinda improvise with "things" I can find laying around the garage. Eventually, I would like to get a really nice motorcycle lift, but that's a little further "on down the road" yet. For now, it seems pretty safe and stable for what I'm doing.

 

[rustybronco]

First of all, in the bikes tool kit there is a cable that has two hooks, one on either end. it's purpose when used with the supplied lever, is to collapse the front forks allowing the rear of the bike to rise, making for an easier rear wheel removal. lacking that, before you put the on the center stand, put a one inch board under it. the board under the stand effectively raises the rear of the bike, combined with angling the rear wheel off to one side when removing it, will get the job done also.

on to the problem...

at this point I would drain the fluids in the engines secondary drive and the third member and check for unusual metal bits before going to much further.

after that, I would remove the right hand "points" cover, put a 3/4 inch wrench on the large nut and turn it clockwise, making sure it's in neutral. then loosen the clamp on the boot, then put a wrench on the bolts and turn the drive shaft; feeling for roughness or lockup when turning it. I would also suggest you re-visit the pumkin and do the same to it before removing the boot.

I rotated the spline gear....it does not bind. At first I was kinda hopeful,
because it didn't at first, but I gave it a little better squeeze with my fingers and it started to rotate freely.

keep in mind, the piece causing the lockup may have gotten "unlodged" at anytime.

 

[bluedawgie]

Thanks Rusty for the tool kit tip. I didn't get an owners manual, and haven't really looked over the tools to see what came with it.
I did drain the fluids in the secondary, the "hub" and the transmission area...(main) but I didn't think to be looking for metal pieces. My intention for draining was to replace the fluids with all synthetic. (Amsoil enthusiast) I'll give the hub some more turns, also moving the shaft with the 3/4" wrench. I was going to try to remove the boot also, or at least disconnect the retainer to get a good look at it, as I'm turning things.

 

[Nessism]

The Suzuki rear ends are almost indestructible so my money is on the secondary gears at this point. Dale's suggestions are sound. If you do need a new final drive I have a spare you can have for shipping cost (came out of a 28k mile GS1000). I've been trying to give this dang thing away for over a year but they never fail so nobody want it.

Good luck.

 

[bluedawgie]

I think most of you would have said something, but have you heard of this happening before. I'm new to the "shaftie" bikes. I had an old '57 Triumph 650 Tiger that I had a chain lock up on me, but that was become there was too much slack. Anyone willing to take a chance and try to guess what is the real issue, when we find out.
Oh, and one other thing. I did put the drained oil into some old oil containers, and haven't turned them in yet at the auto parts store for
recycling. I think maybe I'll run it through something like a screen strainer and then perhaps put a magnet to the remains. Never know, I might come up with a broken tooth or something. One thing nice about the area where I live, is that there are some industrial parks within not too far of a driving distance. I've got a NAPA warehouse, Fastenal warehouse, MSC warehouse, Edison Industrial tools sales. You name it for mechanical needs and I can almost be there within 5 minutes. Comes in real handy when you need to run out and grab that needed part or tool real quick.

 

[tom203]

I think most of you would have said something, but have you heard of this happening before. I'm new to the "shaftie" bikes. I had an old '57 Triumph 650 Tiger that I had a chain lock up on me, but that was become there was too much slack. Anyone willing to take a chance and try to guess what is the real issue, when we find out.

Well sure, I love to make wild guesses! I think something ( bolt, chunk of gear, etc ) broke off and "just" happenned to jam between bevel gears causing an lockup. The curved face on these gears could grab onto a metal chunk and drag it in.
If it was internal to tranny, I would think trans parts would just strip out and not cause wheel lockup. Are you happy now ? get back at it and let us know!

 

[bluedawgie]

Alrighty then......I got delayed....life keeps kinda getting in the way...you know....work, wife, kids, etc. I pulled off the cover for the points and condensor, twisted the nut, and made it all the way around in neutral just fine. Now, here's the kicker....I put it in first gear, made almost one complete revolution and near the end of the first revolution, it started to bind on me. I hope I didn't break anything, but I gave it an extra "nudge" and it "snapped" and I was able to go around again with the same feel, coming to a bind again. I decided to put it in second gear, and try it again. It went around the same way, but no bind and no snap. I decided to put in back in first gear and see what happens, and no bind and no snap. Now, I've only done this for a few revolutions, and there could be something "flukey" going on here. I think it might be safe to say it's in the "tranny" somewhere. Incidentally, I probably ought to add this in also.
In checking my secondary gear oil, (today) I noticed that it's almost watery. Hardly any slipperiness to it at all, plus in checking my service manual, I am supposed to have 330-440ml, as compared to 280-330ml for the final drive. I think that amounts to somewhere around 12 oz. or more.
Well, let alone being watery consistency, I had about 2 tbsps. My jaw dropped when I read that! WHAT?! Here's what I'm planning on doing, and stop me if you think I shouldn't. I am going to put the recommended 90W in the secondary fill area, and rotate it by hand to see if things loosen up. I'm not going to start the motor yet, (especially with the final drive disconnected)but at least that might tell me if the extreme lack of lubrication in the secondary gear area is pointing more towards the issue.

 

[tom203]

Yeah, things get in the way when you're busy.
Anyways, you're rotating that nut CLOCKWISE and tranny is turning. Is propellor shaft turning ( or the flange that it's attached to, if you removed it ) ?
My 650 has different trans system, so others will have to climb aboard to sort this out. But don't waste your time or oil by adding oil at this point- you're looking for a serious jam up or broken part.

 

[rustybronco]

When the bike is in gear, the secondary drive and the drive shaft turn. combined with very little lubricant in the secondary drive, leads one to believe the lockup is going to be found in the secondary drive.

download a "G" shop manual off bikecliffs website. read up on how to remove, replace and adjust (re-shim) the drive and driven gear assemblies. you may also want to inquire about a secondary gear set in the parts wanted section, if the need for them arises.

now to figure out where the gear lubricant went. was it because of seal leakage, or a PO drain and forgot to refill it, or?

lastly, are you going to be up to the challenge, or do you want to bail out on this one? you're at a point where you can slap it back together and pay someone a boat load of cash to fix it for you, or do it yourself. (I suggest you fix it yourself)

 

[tom203]

When the bike is in gear, the secondary drive and the drive shaft turn. combined with very little lubricant in the secondary drive, leads one to believe the lockup is going to be found in the secondary drive.

lastly, are you going to be up to the challenge, or do you want to bail out on this one? you're at a point where you can slap it back together and pay someone a boat load of cash to fix it for you, or do it yourself. (I suggest you fix it yourself)

I think you, bluedawgie, need to go one step before you conclude your exploring. I'd pull off propellor/u-joint shaft and then attempt to remove the housing holding the gear assembly that drives the u-joint. If you can extract this, you will see the bevel drive gears up close and personal. Mark all parts to keep them oriented- especially the housing, since this was probably carefully positioned for best gear meshing. If you get to this step and find what's wrong, at least you'll know and can continue or bail out as you see fit.

 

[rustybronco]

It may be simpler to just pull off the gear shift lever, remove the cover and pull the secondary drive gear housing to inspect. pulling the driven gear housing requires swing arm removal.

 

[bluedawgie]

I really DON'T want to take it to my mechanic, mainly because I can't learn to do it myself if he does it for me. I'm willing to do almost whatever it takes to figure it out for myself, along with the help of you folks here on GS Resources and bugging all my biker/mechanic friends as to what they suggest. Your suggestions on here have been most helpful. I'm gonna keep plugging along until I get it right. As I said previously, I wanted a project bike for a hobby to learn more about motorcycles, but I also wanted to get a little bit more riding time in before the snow flies. But, you can't always get you want...(sounds like the lyrics from a Stones' song). I'll keep searching and digging until I find the issue. I was just talking to a co-worker who did R&D work at the Honda motorcycle plant near here, and he suggested flushing the secondary gear oil system with a light weight oil (transmission fluid) to see if I get any metal particles.
Incidentally, and this is just out of curiousity mainly, is anyone on here a current/or was a motorcycle mechanic? Lotta good info. on here.
Thanks again for all your help. Talk atcha later with more updates.

 

[rustybronco]

If you are going to flush the secondary drive unit, may I suggest kerosene...

In answer to your querry, No I am not, nor ever have been a motorcycle mechanic for a living. industrial lift truck and automotive yes, but not M/C.