You can get NGK plugs at many auto parts stores -- Advance Auto, Pep Boys, and Napa all carry B8-ES plugs a lot cheaper than bike shoppes. About $1.79 - $1.89 each is normal US pricing.
Autozone does NOT carry NGK plugs.
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You can get NGK plugs at many auto parts stores -- Advance Auto, Pep Boys, and Napa all carry B8-ES plugs a lot cheaper than bike shoppes. About $1.79 - $1.89 each is normal US pricing.
Autozone does NOT carry NGK plugs.
R
Roostabunny
Guest
Beat you to it. Called this morning, and just got back from Carquest with 4 x shiny new B8ES's. Gotta unthread that terminal on the wire end right? My old plugs just have exposed threads on the tip. I did not shop around due to my normal something-wrong-with-my-bike anxiousness 8-[, and as a result paid a whopping $2.08 apiece.
As an aside, the gap was spot-on right out of the box. Somewhere between .64mm and .76mm. I meant to bring my spark plug socket so I could test on the way home (and post a better pic of that plug), but I forgot it.
BTW, Keith, you said white smoke would indicate oil burning, and I never mentioned that I only got that when I'm warming up. Course, you also said oil burning problems are more pronounced when the engine's cold, so I may have just proved your point, but I thought it worth mentioning that the exhaust is "clean" once she warms up.
R
Roostabunny
Guest
Looks dryer than this in real life. I'm not sayin' it's not oil Here's a better pic.
By the way, this plug is a BP7ES, not sure why it's a different plug. Off hand the only difference I see is that there's more of the insulator showing beyond the threads than on the stock ones I just bought.
I swapped the plug and rode 4-5 miles and it felt the same as before. Actually, I'm not quite sure it felt the same, but it definately sounded the same. Might have pulled a little harder, but still not right.
Checked the new plug after getting home and it looked clean and shiny. That might just mean I didn't ride long enough, but let me know what you think.
By the way, this plug is a BP7ES, not sure why it's a different plug. Off hand the only difference I see is that there's more of the insulator showing beyond the threads than on the stock ones I just bought.
I swapped the plug and rode 4-5 miles and it felt the same as before. Actually, I'm not quite sure it felt the same, but it definately sounded the same. Might have pulled a little harder, but still not right.
Checked the new plug after getting home and it looked clean and shiny. That might just mean I didn't ride long enough, but let me know what you think.
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Someone installed the 7 plug because it's a "hotter" plug. It's a very common/weak attempt at fixing a poor combustion/spark problem.
I know you said it looks drier in person but that sure looks like oil to me.
If ANY oil gets on a plug, the oil acts as an insulator. Oil is a poor conductor. Very little, if any spark can get through to allow decent combustion. If a plug is just wet with gas, the gas will soon evaporate and the plug will be dry. Oil won't dry.
You said the bike ran fine but suddenly started this problem. A plug can take just so much and then start to foul or foul completely. Yes, worn valve seals, etc, generally allow oil to leak into the cylinder much more easily when the motor is cold. You may see white smoke. You also happen to see white smoke out of the left side exhaust. As the motor heats up and the clearances tighten, the oil entering/getting past a bad seal will be less and the problem isn't as bad. Over time it will get worse. A piston rings ability to seal can fail suddenly too. A ring can crack. Again, oil can enter and compression will drop, both causing poor combustion/weak or no spark.
Once in awhile, some people describe "white smoke" but they really are seeing condensation. Condensation can happen on colder start up conditions and it will go away as the motor warms fully. It dissipates into the air much faster than true smoke. I can tell the difference between condensation and oil burning but some can't as easily I guess.
Your plug pic and symptoms fit an oil leak. As you can see, even a new plug didn't give any help. I'm guessing that cylinder is low on compression.
R
Roostabunny
Guest
So next I borrow a buddy's compression gauge?
As long as I'm borrowing tools, let's assume you're right and this cylinder is low on compression (which I'll verify) - what's next?
You can also place a fresh plug in the cap, lay the ground electrode (tip) solidly against the head and crank the motor. You should see a good bluish spark.
If you then start the bike and it continues the problem, look at the plug again and retest for spark as above. If it no longer sparks well as before or the spark looks weak/or orange, then obviously the conditions in that cylinder are fouling the plug.
If you then start the bike and it continues the problem, look at the plug again and retest for spark as above. If it no longer sparks well as before or the spark looks weak/or orange, then obviously the conditions in that cylinder are fouling the plug.
R
Roostabunny
Guest
You mean you'll see a change in the spark before you can actually see the oil on the plug? For that matter, does my 4 mile plug count as fresh?
Yes. As I suggested earlier, get a gauge and check compression at all four cylinders to verify. If you have low compression anywhere, it must be repaired. No attempts at tuning or compensating will help.
Lets see the compression numbers.
F
focus frenzy
Guest
hmmmm just a idea here, take the diaphram cap off the #1 carb and see if the return spring is where it is suspose to be or is coiled up on top.
I have seen this a couple times and one of those times the owner and given up and thought that one cylinder was toast and parted out the bike.
(I got the carbs on E-bay and discovered his mistake.
the other time my buddy was pulling his hair out on his Kat as it would not run right, it now runs like a scalded cat.
I have seen this a couple times and one of those times the owner and given up and thought that one cylinder was toast and parted out the bike.
(I got the carbs on E-bay and discovered his mistake.
the other time my buddy was pulling his hair out on his Kat as it would not run right, it now runs like a scalded cat.
R
Roostabunny
Guest
Yeah, I'm not thinking there's any shortcut to fixing compression, but I'm actually hinting around for you to tell me which jobs that'll entail. Rings? Am I about to get that opportunity to replace my base gasket?
I'm not jumping to conclusions, and I don't want to waste your time with guessing, but I am dyin' with suspense! :-D
I don't expect and answer on this one, but the main things my brain is fixating on is, how many hours/days the bike will be under the knife (it's my ride to work), how much I'll be out in parts, and can I still ride it while I'm planning the job?
You can test with that plug. Just be sure to rinse it in gas or carb cleaner and wipe it dry. It should spark well. If it doesn't spark against the head, let us know.
An oil leak into the cylinder may not be readily visible after only 4 miles. Even a compromised spark will burn off the oil at first. The gas in the mixture is cleansing too. But at some point the oil will build up and the spark weakens or dies. Fouled plug. There's no doubt your plug is fouling.
You can also check the #1 header for heat build up as it warms up. Does it appear to heat up just like the others? This is not an absolute test as it doesn't necessarily confirm good/constant spark. It does mean you're getting at least intermittent combustion. But many times you can feel the effected cylinder not building heat as quickly as the others and it means an obvious problem.
Even if intermittent, you have to be careful or you'll get burned.
Nothing wrong with the idea, but how would that make his #1 plug look like that?
F
focus frenzy
Guest
if the spring coils up on top it will keep the slide from working correctly and will cause all kinds of havock with the jetting as the buttlerfly will still be opening and closing normaly but the slide will be stuck pretty much closed and not regulating vacume and fuel flow from main jet like it should.
OK. But his plug looks like oil on it.
Rings/valve guide seals aren't that expensive. Cost depends. You may find more that needs fixing, may not.
Taking off the head and/or cylinders is a bit of work. Plenty of help around here if you want to do it yourself. The right tools help.
Don't get ahead of things. Test first.
Guys...what are those tests that suggest or prove a leak is from a valve guide or piston ring? Where you add a small amount of oil into a cylinder.
Help him out. My kid is telling me we're missing the Laker game.:shock::lol:
F
focus frenzy
Guest
never good to diagnose a plug via a picture on a computer screen as there is no substitute for a good old fashion eye ball.
also he put new plugs in and it had no real change.
when I bought Bob and got him running after his long slumber he was sucking down oil at a rate reserved for a two stroke.
60 miles would require 1/4 quart oil, even at that rate the plugs would last 120 miles before fouling out.
F
focus frenzy
Guest
thats what TIVO is for, record it!! LOL
F
focus frenzy
Guest
also if he has a oil consumption problem it would have been a problem before he got on it hard.
R
Roostabunny
Guest
OK, well, I'll borrow that compression gauge tomorrow, and we'll get those numbers up here. That oughtta give me some direction. Meantime, enjoy the Laker game - and speaking of TIVO, time to watch LOST.
R
Roostabunny
Guest
Agreed, I took about 15 different photos trying to get it to look right. That said, I think my "dry" comment was wishful thinking. My heart said it was carbon, but my eye said oil.