Trying to find the source of an oil leak

[matt_gs450]

Hi All,

My 450T, which I've taken from dead to running great, has a small oil leak. After a ride, a few drops will hit the ground. I want to sell the bike, but I don't want to haggle with someone over this small leak. If I can fix it I'd like to. Or, I'd like to at least say I know what it is and what it takes to fix.

The oil is appearing from underneath the clutch cover. I think it is either coming from the clutch spindle or from behind the sprocket. Please take a look at the page I put up and let me know if you have any thoughts as to where the leak is:
http://www.stupidcatchphrase.com/moto/gs450t/oil-leak/index.html

Thanks a lot,
Matt

 

[SqDancerLynn1]

Clutch pushrod seal is the most likley suspect

 

[almarconi]

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. If you can't fix it just disclose the leak to the buyer. Most reasonable people don't expect to buy a used bike, especially a 20+ year old one, without any maintenance issues.

 

[bwringer]

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. If you can't fix it just disclose the leak to the buyer. Most reasonable people don't expect to buy a used bike, especially a 20+ year old one, without any maintenance issues.

There are a lot of unreasonable people who expect a frickin' warranty.

And even a reasonable person would knock quite a bit of cash off the price even though it's a relatively cheap and easy fix. If I were a buyer, I'd expect at least $100 to $200 off.

The clutch pushrod seal is maybe, what, four bucks? The output shaft seal is around $6. Both are quite easy to change.

Change 'em = profit $$. Or change the pushrod seal first because it's easier, and see where that gets you.



Also, WHERE ARE YOU???

Lots of GS-ers might be looking for a 450, you know. Perhaps a deal could be made.

 

[mighty13d]

Also, WHERE ARE YOU???

Lots of GS-ers might be looking for a 450, you know. Perhaps a deal could be made.

Also there might be some close GSers who are willing to come lend a hand in changing those seals for maybe just a burger or beer or something! Spend $20 on food and drinks and make a couple hundred in return and have the pleasure of knowing you fixed it yourself. Worth it to me!

 

[matt_gs450]

Thanks for your replies. After working the clutch about 25 times, it doesn't appear any oil is coming out that way. I'll take off the sprocket and see if there is any evidence of the leak coming from there. It's very likely the culprit because the chain is oily and throws oil around inside the clutch cover.

How much would a mechanic charge to replace the drive shaft seals? 4 hours maybe? I definitely want to do the work myself. I've done almost all the maintenance up until now and I'm getting obsessive about it If it's a job that requires special tools, I may have to appeal to someone in the area (San Mateo, CA) for assistance.

-Matt

 

[matt_gs450]

It took a while to find a 32 mm socket. I should know by now to start at Sears instead of going to Home Depot and Pep Boys first. Anyway, it was barely necessary. Once I unbent the washer, the sprocket nut was only hand tight.

From the picture it seems that the drive shaft is indeed the source of the oil.

Am I going to need to remove the engine to replace the seals? And will it require any special tools? I'll look through my service manual, but if anyone wants to share their insight it's appreciated.

Thanks,
Matt

 

[matt_gs450]

OK. Correct me if I'm wrong. To get to the drive shaft and replace the oil seals I need to:
* remove the engine
* turn it upside down
* remove the oil pan
* split the crankcase

And then I can lift out the drive shaft?

If this is true, I'll need a crankcase splitter and a case of beer for whoever helps me remove the engine. Hopefully that person also has a crankcase splitter because I don't really want to spend $170 for one. Then again, as it seems I'll own this bike forever, maybe it will come in handy again.

-Matt

 

[bob101770]

Your picture is of a counter shaft. So get youself a new counter shaft seal pull your old one out, put the new one in. Ten minutes and your done. A pick with a bend in it usually will get the seal out, but you can buy a seal puller also. then get a socket the same size as the metal edge on the new seal. push the seal in by hand a little bit, the put the socket over the metal part and gently tape it in with a hammer till it all the way in.

 

[bwringer]

Your picture is of a counter shaft. So get youself a new counter shaft seal pull your old one out, put the new one in. Ten minutes and your done. A pick with a bend in it usually will get the seal out, but you can buy a seal puller also. then get a socket the same size as the metal edge on the new seal. push the seal in by hand a little bit, the put the socket over the metal part and gently tape it in with a hammer till it all the way in.

Right. No engine splitting is needed here. Take a deep breath...

Remove that plate that retains and protects the seals, and you'll see a lot more. Nothing will come shooting out at you.

There are lots of different methods for removing a reluctant seal -- I usually screw in a short drywall screw just a little bit and pull on that with pliers. Careful -- the seal is fairly thin and you don't want to damage the bearing behind it.

I'd replace both the pushrod and output shaft seal if I were you, but I like to be thorough.

 

[matt_gs450]

Thanks bwringer. I was wondering if I could just remove that plate but was concerned about parts shooting out at me. The plate has tabs blocking the bolts. I assume I can bend those back with a chisel and proceed?

 

[jadesystem]

Hi Matt,

I can give you a hand on this. I'm in San Jose, and not far from you
on 101 north. We'll take a look at that suspect seal and get that
resolved for you.

Let me know as I'm off to San Francisco this afternoon. I could stop
by beforehand in the afternoon, or afterwards late in the evening.

Take care !!

 

[matt_gs450]

Hi jadesystem. Thanks for the offer. I'll try to access the seals on one of my parts bikes this evening. If I have trouble doing that I'll see if I can arrange some time to get your help once the replacement seals arrive.

-Matt

 

[matt_gs450]

I finally got around to removing the seals off my parts bike, to get an idea of how thin the seals are and what's behind them. I used bwringer's drywall screw approach to removal. I'm ready to remove the parts from my 450T without worrying about damaging anything.

For practice, I tried to re-insert the old seals on the parts bike. The seals got shredded a bit as I tapped them into place. I used two wooden dowels on opposite ends of the seal, tapping on both dowels simultaneously. I guess I need to use a different technique with the new seals. I'll try it like bob101770 suggests (socket same diameter as the seal). Would it be OK to use some motor oil to lubricate the seal before attempting to put it in?

Thanks again,
Matt

 

[briyenkieth]

silicone around the outside of the seal and a bit of grease on the inside diameter. Don't get to happy with the silicone. Also look at the gear indicator switch above the sprocket. That's where I found my leak.

 

[matt_gs450]

Hey All,

So I got my seals yesterday and tried to install them today. I bought a large socket to tap them into place. I used oil on the inner diameter and applied a little silicone spray to the OD of the seal. It just wouldn't seat though. I could only get one side of the seal in. After trying several times, I saw that the seal was starting to shred the same way as when I tried on my "practice" bike.

Luckily I bought two sets of seals so I still have another one to try again. However I really don't have any idea what to do differently. I know I used oil instead of grease. Maybe that makes the difference? Honestly though, it seems like the ID is too small to allow the seal to be tapped into it. Also, this procedure isn't described in any reference I've seen. I've only seen it mentioned on this forum.

I'm going to cool off and then I'll try using grease with the already shredded seal to see if it goes in. Pep talks are welcome at this point... I'm regretting pulling out the old seals due to a small leak like this.

Gracias,
Matt

 

[chuckycheese]

I understand

I understand

I understand exactly what you're going through. I did the same job on a Yamaha 650 I used to have and it took me 3 tries to get it right. The thing that's tearing up the seal is the very outer edge of the seal opening on the case. So...on my third try, I took a tiny file and went around the sharp edge and filed off just a minute amount of the edge...so little that you might not even be able to see it (but you will be able to feel it).

After that, it slipped in easily (with a little grease and a number of soft, straight-on taps) and worked perfectly.

The first reaction most people would have to this is that you'll ruin the whole 'shabang' and it will leak until the cows come home. If that happens, you've filed off way too much because filing off the amount I mentioned of the very outer edge could never make it leak...but it will make it so you can get it started without damaging it.

Lastly, based upon the picture you posted, I'd be surprised if that ends up being where the leak came from. After all you've been through, I hope I'm wrong about that.

 

[briyenkieth]

not silicone spray but sealant. Like rtv or something. Go slow you'll get it. Did you look at the gear indicator switch yet?

 

[matt_gs450]

chuckycheese: that's interesting timing. After unwinding with a couple beers, I had that thought as well before re-checking the thread. I was beginning to eye my small file set and contemplate giving the seal a little better chance to get in there by taking down that initial edge. I've got one seal left to try it with and I just may do that. I'll sleep on it though and see if anyone here wants to say "that's crazy, don't do it!" in the meantime.

briyenkieth: I'm nearly certain the drive shaft seal is the culprit. Once I got the sprocket off, it was obvious that oil was pooling up back there. And I really cleaned out the clutch/sprocket cavity while investigating so I'm sure it's not from the switch. There's just old cooked on oil spatter around it.

Once I got the old seals out, I could see that the mating of the upper/lower crankcase halves was burred in the seal opening. I think it might be from some substance used when the crankcase was reassembled in the past. That is where the oil is getting out. The old seals show evidence of this as well. I'll post pictures soon (but it's 90 degrees here and not the best weather for sitting with my laptop).

I very carefully filed down the burring with a round file. The filings felt soft, not like metal. Partially it was dry cooked oil and grit. I did some filing on the outside of the engine to get the "feel" of aluminum so I wouldn't file any (or much) aluminum in the seal opening. Then I removed the filings with an oily rag and compressed air. Then I buffed the joint with my dremel and a felt wheel. It's smooth to the touch now. It's a gamble because I didn't want to file away enough to cause a bigger leak. But I've had pretty good success with my file skills in the past (some call me a chiseler ) so I just did it. Now it's just a matter of getting that seal in there.

Thanks for your help so far. I'm going to just take a step back and think about this. I don't want to blow my second chance and have to wait another week for more parts.

-Matt

 

[chuckycheese]

Your choice!

Your choice!

If anyone thinks my suggestion will cause it to leak, they don't understand what I'm suggesting that you do. The amount of filing I'm advocating couldn't possibly change anything that matters....other than getting the new one in without ruining it. If the seal were 1/8 or 1/16 inch thick...it might not be a good idea but, even then, I still don't think it would matter. As it is, I think you'd reduce the sealing surface by about 1/100th.... no, even less....negligible!

Make positive that you push it in straight; if you have any doubt, gently remove it and start over. Good luck..you'll get it!