Vesrah Gasket Set Failure

[goatboy]

Vesrah gasket set issue concern

Vesrah gasket set issue concern

I just bought a complete Vesrah gasket set from one of our GS Resource senior members via this site using Paypal today for my 82 GS750EZ (which has a small oil seep at front edge of #4 cylinder head (22k total miles with original (factory-built) engine. In other words, I really just needed the head & base gaskets. But, $61 dollars including shipping sounded like a pretty good deal (but ONLY IF they don't start leaking right away! as I use the bike to commute 50 to 100 miles/day.)

Certainly don't want to cast any dispersions upon our fellow GS member for selling me this gasket set today! However, I'm on a very tight budget and cannot afford any additional transporation worries/expenses now.

Should I contact our fellow GS Resource Senior member and cancel order for Vesrah gasket set? I have no idea about manuf date of gasket set.

Or, should I accept delivery and pray that the head/base gaskets will fit properly and not leak in 5000 miles? (after verifying that neither the head or cylinder is damaged or warped, of course!)

 

[bwringer]

You are the best judge of the gasket condition from the manufacturer.

Cometic didn't design their MLS gaskets with oil seals on the corner studs, that's why they are missing. If you look closely at their design, these are the only holes that don't have a over lapping sealing ring manufactured between the outer layers. I guess they have found this allows the individual layers to flex better during heat cycles, reducing their tendency to leak. Lets hope they're right.:-k
How many more heat cycles before a re-torque??

Look, I'm sure Cometic makes some nice gaskets. The one they sent me was a piece of poorly made crap. I'm not trying to trash the company's reputation, but I am reporting the facts of my experience. If you and trippivot are so concerned about Cometic's reputation, ask your friends there to send me a GS850 head gasket that isn't a piece of crap.

As far as the missing corner seals, despite your amusing theory about flex and heat cycles and layers, this is exactly the problem -- my gasket leaks oil at these corners. Perhaps Cometic thinks these seals are not needed. You and Cometic are welcome to believe your theories, but the facts of my experience prove otherwise.

Through repeated snide comments, you and trippy also have also made it clear that you think I must be some idiot who does not know how to prep or surface a cylinder head, or that I am ignorant of the correct procedures for torquing or re-torquing cylinder head nuts. Please -- knock off the crap slinging.

 

[Nessism]

Look, I'm sure Cometic makes some nice gaskets. The one they sent me was a piece of poorly made crap. I'm not trying to trash the company's reputation, but I am reporting the facts of my experience. If you and trippivot are so concerned about Cometic's reputation, ask your friends there to send me a GS850 head gasket that isn't a piece of crap.

As far as the missing corner seals, despite your amusing theory about flex and heat cycles and layers, this is exactly the problem -- my gasket leaks oil at these corners. Perhaps Cometic thinks these seals are not needed. You and Cometic are welcome to believe your theories, but the facts of my experience prove otherwise.

Through repeated snide comments, you and trippy also have also made it clear that you think I must be some idiot who does not know how to prep or surface a cylinder head, or that I am ignorant of the correct procedures for torquing or re-torquing cylinder head nuts. Please -- knock off the crap slinging.

Brian,

Please forgive me for asking this, I don't want to inflame particularly since you clearly are knowledgeable but...did you measure the flatness of the head and cylinder on your bike before sticking on the new gaskets? I ask because during my 1000 engine rebuild I found several different heads and cylinders and ALL of them had some measure of warpage, particularly at the ends where the oil travels upward to the head. It's very difficult to measure this warpage unless you have a surface plate - lay the head and cylinder face down on the plate and look for daylight underneath. Laying a ruler on the surface doesn't work very well and can fool you into thinking the head is flat.

On my engine I took both the head and cylinder to a machine shop and had them cut them to make them flat. From everything I've read, MLS gaskets ARE more sensitive to flatness and surface finish of the mating surfaces than the old type composite gaskets. My machinist told me that the stock type gaskets are the best to use if the surfaces are not perfectly flat or if there are imperfections in the metal surface finish.

Based on everything I've read here about people getting leaks with MLS type gaskets I wouldn't run one unless the surfaces are properly refinished. On my own engine I'm using an Athena gasket kit with MLS head gasket. I'm getting nervous now after all this talk of leakage...fingers crossed.

 

[49er]

Look, I'm sure Cometic makes some nice gaskets. The one they sent me was a piece of poorly made crap. I'm not trying to trash the company's reputation, but I am reporting the facts of my experience. If you and trippivot are so concerned about Cometic's reputation, ask your friends there to send me a GS850 head gasket that isn't a piece of crap.

As far as the missing corner seals, despite your amusing theory about flex and heat cycles and layers, this is exactly the problem -- my gasket leaks oil at these corners. Perhaps Cometic thinks these seals are not needed. You and Cometic are welcome to believe your theories, but the facts of my experience prove otherwise.

Through repeated snide comments, you and trippy also have also made it clear that you think I must be some idiot who does not know how to prep or surface a cylinder head, or that I am ignorant of the correct procedures for torquing or re-torquing cylinder head nuts. Please -- knock off the crap slinging.

You've got the wrong end of the stick Brian! I haven't been poking the borax at you, as Trippivot has been. I have simply pointed out that if you're looking for corner seals with a MLS gasket, you're missing the plot.

The other point I made about surface integrity was generic, not specifically aimed at you.

I don't have any shares in Cometic, so I could just as easily buy an OEM gasket. I would need to scrape all the the crap off my surfaces at any subsequent rebuilds though, but there would be no oil leaks!!

As far as the re-torquing quip is concerned, it was aimed at Trip. He headed a previous post with a suggested 3 heat cycles period.

FYI, the OEM base gasket I received is way bigger around the tear drop/oil way area. It matches the shape and size of gasket on the 1100 under my bench. The key mating surface points are the same, so I've fitted it and trimmed the excess material off.

I thought you were thicker skinned than this Brian.

 

[bwringer]

My apologies as well. Let's go riding and then drink some beer...


Anyway, my original base gasket problem was caused by poor Vesrah gaskets and o-rings. The Vesrah head gasket was actually working fine all around. I replaced the base gasket, o-rings, and such with OEM and these are working wonderfully.

The Cometic head gasket I was forced to use (well, not forced at gunpoint, but by circumstance and impatience) is sealing compression just fine, and it's not leaking anywhere near the cam chain tunnel, so I suppose it could be considered a near success.

I'll take your word for it on the corner seals on MLS gaskets. All I know is, my bike seeps oil at the corners, and it never has before. It's not a lot at all -- probably less than a lot of people would even bother to fuss about. In fact, I'm planning to ride the snot out of it until winter and until then just wash the engine once in a while.

To answer another question above, no I don't happen to have a surface plate just lying around. However, when I built this engine about 25,000 miles ago, the head and block were thoroughly checked on a surface plate (no issues found) and lightly resurfaced (just enough to clean up the sealing surfaces) by a very competent machine shop that specializes in Japanese motorcycles.

With no overheating or any other issues in the intervening time (it runs like the proverbial violated simian ), I'm confident warpage isn't the issue. Plus, it seeps pretty evenly at all four corners, so I doubt the sealing surfaces are damaged.

 

[49er]

My apologies as well. Let's go riding and then drink some beer...


Anyway, my original base gasket problem was caused by poor Vesrah gaskets and o-rings. The Vesrah head gasket was actually working fine all around. I replaced the base gasket, o-rings, and such with OEM and these are working wonderfully.

The Cometic head gasket I was forced to use (well, not forced at gunpoint, but by circumstance and impatience) is sealing compression just fine, and it's not leaking anywhere near the cam chain tunnel, so I suppose it could be considered a near success.

I'll take your word for it on the corner seals on MLS gaskets. All I know is, my bike seeps oil at the corners, and it never has before. It's not a lot at all -- probably less than a lot of people would even bother to fuss about. In fact, I'm planning to ride the snot out of it until winter and until then just wash the engine once in a while.

To answer another question above, no I don't happen to have a surface plate just lying around. However, when I built this engine about 25,000 miles ago, the head and block were thoroughly checked on a surface plate (no issues found) and lightly resurfaced (just enough to clean up the sealing surfaces) by a very competent machine shop that specializes in Japanese motorcycles.

With no overheating or any other issues in the intervening time (it runs like the proverbial violated simian ), I'm confident warpage isn't the issue. Plus, it seeps pretty evenly at all four corners, so I doubt the sealing surfaces are damaged.

Yep, I'm off to put some more kms on mine, as we speak. It's a warm 16 deg C winter Saturday arvo here. And, I'll have that beer or three, at the end of the day.

Still can't stop checking my left boot for oil at the end of each ride though.
Bloody pirates, they kill ya confidence in the gaskets you get supplied.

 

[Guest]

I've never torn down a motorcycle engine. But I did read up on MLS gaskets before having the head gaskets replaced in my car. It became clear that MLS gaskets are superior to standard gaskets provided that (1) the cylinder surface and the head surface are almost perfectly flat, and (2) the surfaces are almost perfectly smooth. So it makes sense to take the cylinder assembly and the head to a machine shop that can measure the flatness and the smoothness, and plane or polish them as necessary. And it sounds like that's what lots of GSers do.

 

[49er]

MLS Head Gaskets

MLS Head Gaskets

Some feedback on my progress so far.

The 850's now done 200 kms (5 heat cycles) so it's just had a re-torque. Got around a 1/4 turn extra from the initial torque at 30 psi. I was dismayed that the 2 studs adjacent to the cam chain tunnel on #2 pot, weren't as tight as the rest. I seem to remember that I used an angle drive adaptor on them because of poor access due to wiring looms etc in that region. This is obviously a trap for young players (and old ones too). Even though the angle was minimal, there was sufficient resistance at the joint to give a false reading at the stud. I remedied this at re-torque by discarding the adapter and sliding the drive piece further out of the torque wrench so that the head of the wrench just cleared the breather cap.

In summary, these MLS gaskets supposedly don't need re-torquing, but I'm not convinced. IMO, some of the give was in the base gasket, and some in the head gasket.
No sign of any oil leaks though, at this stage!!

 

[BlackStar]

I guess I'm a little late to this party. I overhauled my GS1000 in the winter of 07/08. Memorial day weekend 09, the right rear base gasket oil passage started leaking oil at a considerable rate. One minute it was dry, next minute leaking. I used a cometic MLS head gasket which does not leak, however the vesra base / o-ring combo has failed, miserably. I didn't have much of a choice on the head gasket since cometic was the only source I could find for my overbore. Gaskacinch was applied to the base gasket at assy. The head was re-torqued at least twice. I don't do this for a living, but have been working on engines since I was 12, I turned 48 today, so I'm not a newb. I did everything by the book, which I always strive to do, proper information is critical in my career (aviation). I only want to do a job once. As such, this is the most agrivating gasket (or should I say sealing) failure I have experienced. I hope to get to root cause this fall, when the weather, and myself cool off a bit. Based on what I have seen in this thread, I don't think I'll play the vesrah card again.
Oh and BTW, I agree with the comments on the automotive aftermarket parts market. It has gone to crap and has turned into a legalized couterfit parts orgy. Companies that are importing this crap need good liability insurance for when critical components fail and people get injured or die. Parts is parts, right.

 

[49er]

Thanks for your feedback BlackStar.

I doesn't relieve the pain to know that others have been affected by this parts scam. However, I do feel consoled that you too have had many years wrenching, so these failures aren't likely to be caused through poor workmanship/lack of experience. I can't stand rework through slack workmanship, so this failure had me fuming.

Be cautious of gasket sets that are offered at a substantial reduction of the median price. Likely to be counterfeit.

With an OEM base gasket and o rings, this should be the end of the saga.

 

[49er]

Now 3000 kms since rebuild

Now 3000 kms since rebuild

An update on the 850 top end rebuild, using a MLS head gasket.

No oil leaks after the first 3k. Only recently stopped checking my left boot for signs of oil from the base gasket, after longer rides.

The MLS head gasket shows minor signs of expansion movement, by leaving blurred lines to each side where it contacts the ali surfaces. The elastomer appears to have given in these areas. This is only just visible, but no oil seeping anywhere.

Nessism, the 002" proud liners are working great. Your comment about a reputable machine shop being able to cut both ali and iron surfaces cleanly is only relevant for the top surface. It's extremely difficult to machine the cylinder base surface with the liners protruding.

At this stage, I'm very pleased with this MLS product.

 

[ronin1166]

I replaced the head on my ' 84 ZX900A Ninja this past spring.

Head and cylinder were verified as clean and flat.

Torqued down properly, with a calibrated torque wrench.

Vesrah head gasket was weeping coolant within 100 mi.

Never again.



.

 

[posplayr]

I replaced the head on my ' 84 ZX900A Ninja this past spring.

Head and cylinder were verified as clean and flat.

Torqued down properly, with a calibrated torque wrench.

Vesrah head gasket was weeping coolant within 100 mi.

Never again.

BTW there are special gaskets made for low earth orbits (less than 5000 ft AGL ) that work fine, Cometic composite gaskets

.

Now Now I have it on good authority if your surfaces are "pretty" enough and you install the MLS on the space station in a low G environment that everything will be wonderful.

That is where I went wrong. Bill and I were at only at 250 ft AGL.

This motor lasted about 15 seconds before "coming", or should I say squirting .
I re torqued the Cometic MLS at 2.5 ft-lbs increments 3 more times to no avail. I needed low g's


see the video

 

[49er]

Now Now I have it on good authority if your surfaces are "pretty" enough and you install the MLS on the space station in a low G environment that everything will be wonderful.

That is where I went wrong. Bill and I were at only at 250 ft AGL.

This motor lasted about 15 seconds before "coming", or should I say squirting .
I re torqued the Cometic MLS at 2.5 ft-lbs increments 3 more times to no avail. I needed low g's


see the video

Oh you heathens. I'll get you some pics of my clean, oil free MLS head gasket fit up at sea level, down under.

I just might post some plug pics too, to confirm the internal state of tune.

 

[Planecrazy]

Oh you heathens. I'll get you some pics of my clean, oil free MLS head gasket fit up at sea level, down under.

I just might post some plug pics too, to confirm the internal state of tune.

So that's the trick ... the bike must be upside down when installing these!

Regards,

 

[posplayr]

So that's the trick ... the bike must be upside down when installing these!

Regards,

That is why the low G environment is required.

 

[handyjoe]

Some feedback on my progress so far.

The 850's now done 200 kms (5 heat cycles) so it's just had a re-torque. Got around a 1/4 turn extra from the initial torque at 30 psi. I was dismayed that the 2 studs adjacent to the cam chain tunnel on #2 pot, weren't as tight as the rest. I seem to remember that I used an angle drive adaptor on them because of poor access due to wiring looms etc in that region. This is obviously a trap for young players (and old ones too). Even though the angle was minimal, there was sufficient resistance at the joint to give a false reading at the stud. I remedied this at re-torque by discarding the adapter and sliding the drive piece further out of the torque wrench so that the head of the wrench just cleared the breather cap.

In summary, these MLS gaskets supposedly don't need re-torquing, but I'm not convinced. IMO, some of the give was in the base gasket, and some in the head gasket.
No sign of any oil leaks though, at this stage!!

All gaskets will experience relaxation. Any joint, with either MLS, graphite, or otherwise, will experience some form of load loss due to thermal cycling. MLS retains bolt load better than composite, but you're not going to have perfect load retention.

Any chance someone could put up pictures of the Cometic MLS, specifically the corners with/out the oil seals? I haven't taken off my head yet, so I really have no idea what you guys are talking about.

 

[posplayr]

3rd pic down shows one of those wonderful MLS beauties. Notice the nice flatness as we removed the head after thre faild attempts to retorque (2.5 ft-lbs increments with calibrated wrench).

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showpost.php?p=999230&postcount=97

 

[49er]

All gaskets will experience relaxation. Any joint, with either MLS, graphite, or otherwise, will experience some form of load loss due to thermal cycling. MLS retains bolt load better than composite, but you're not going to have perfect load retention.

Any chance someone could put up pictures of the Cometic MLS, specifically the corners with/out the oil seals? I haven't taken off my head yet, so I really have no idea what you guys are talking about.

I've linked some pics of used Vesrah and MLS gaskets from my 850. You will notice that my old MLS gasket is still perfectly flat. The "bad experiences" that both Chef and Posplayr have had with MLS gaskets, are on their 16 valve motors. Your 550 is a 8 valve so should be similar to the 850.

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s309/49er_photos/P1000361.jpg
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s309/49er_photos/P1000366.jpg
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s309/49er_photos/P1000364.jpg

Looking at the pics Posplayr has shown, it appears that his gasket oil ways aren't small enough for the holes that surround the corner studs. The OEM gaskets have rubber o-rings in this area. The 8 valve MLS gaskets have the oil way holes aligning perfectly with the bores on the head and cylinders for each corner stud. The Vesrah head gaskets have separate rubber o rings that fit into the corner stud holes.

You really don't need to be living "down under", or on the moon to make these things work.

 

[DanTheMan]

My Vesrah gasket set came with o-rings that didn't fit properly and wouldn't allow the head to sit flat on the gasket surface (the retainer around the o-rings was larger than the hole in the gasket). I have a complete o-ring assortment where I found two suitable o-rings without the retainer ring to install. The right side worked fine, the left side has seepage problems. Next head gasket I buy will be OEM Suzuki.