Weird charging problems

[Guest]

Is the Rick's one a higher output than stock?

dunno. i asked up here about rewinding it for a higher output but they recon because the original stator is so tightly packed that they could not up it by more than 5%.

but as matchless suggested even the original should be able to put through 15amps and with the total draw on the bike being 7 or so amps it should be plenty now that i have an upgraded RR. i hope, that is

 

[Guest]

psyguy,
PM me if you want a fairly complete guide on rewinding your stator
Keep well

thanks. i think i'll pass on doing this myself, already have other projects asking more of my time...

 

[Matchless]

thanks. i think i'll pass on doing this myself, already have other projects asking more of my time...

Yes for that you will need a lot of time.. and patience. Our rewinders are not interested and I now know why!
Hope you find one for a reasonable price soon.
Keep well.

 

[Speedo]

psyguy,
holy jezu man ('mate' i guess to translate - go AllBlacks!) I am experiencing a somewhat similar problem, but nowhere NEAR the ordeal you have gone through (I read your whole thread several time). Here is mine in case you can/want to weigh in.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=149740

My point to even post here (as I can add nowhere near the knowledge/value that guys like Matchless, Steve, KiwiGS, etc, etc can) is this.

Asyou have gone through the trouble to tilt bike, take cover off, and eyeball stator (which I am dreading and hope i do not have to do), why not think about replacing it EVEN IF it didn't look "suspect" (which of course it did)?

My thinking is, and I know a couple hundred bucks is real money, but our bikes are old anyway so it would well worth it to replace with new becasue at this point you have invested so much time and have faced so much aggrevation etc, that it would worth the $$ to "KNOW" that, if the problem persists (I sincerely hope not), it it NOT due to stator.

BTW, BikeCliff's site has an excellent pictoral/write up on replacing stator on his GS850....might be helpful to you.

Good luck, let us know what you do and how it works out!

 

[Guest]

thanks andrew... mate

i have just ordered a new stator from rick's.

i guess it might take a while for me to get over the $40 shipping, eh :-s

 

[Jackbob]

Fair enough mate.
Is the Rick's one a higher output than stock?

Hi KiwiGS and Psy.
I seem to remember when i bought my Electrosport Stator that their website mentioned a 20% increase in charging power overs stock (for the GS1000 model P/N ESG020).

They list the GS850G as P/N ESG010 so not sure the differences.

It looks to be reasonably good quality and charges perfectly. I also bought a new RR from them at the same time and ran a wire direct to the battery as suggested in the Stator pages.

RGDS

 

[Guest]

New stator

New stator

the new stator from rick's arrived today and i installed it and tested it immediately.

tested at 2000rpm (charging measured at the battery):
- headlight OFF = 14.8V
- headlight ON = voltage jumped to 15.6V, then after a few seconds the 10A in-line fuse on the RR+ wire burnt out.


so, do you think there still might be a problem somewhere or do i just need a bigger fuse?


i measured the total current load when the headlight is on and the engine running and it came to 8A so i was a bit surprised that a 10A fuse poped out so soon, but i don't really know much



the rest of the system is as follows:

• the battery has been tested by a car electritian and it is ok for voltage, load test and electrolitye specific gravity
• all the relevant connections and wires are new
• RR is a honda 6-wire model from duaneage, and it is wired directly to the battery with the sense wire spliced into the main switched wire

 

[Matchless]

Psyguy,
Do you mean the seperate inline fuse you fitted and carries all the current from the Regulator directly to the battery? If so then that fuse should be larger than the maximum current that the R/R can push out on that wire.

10A is a bit low, if the charging system can push up to 15 amps via that fuse then that fuse should be 20A, even a 15A fuse is then border line.

Hope this is your last hurdle!

 

[Guest]

Psyguy,
Do you mean the seperate inline fuse you fitted and carries all the current from the Regulator directly to the battery?

yes, that's what i meant. i'll fit a 20A fuse. thanks

but, is the 15.6V all right?

 

[Matchless]

yes, that's what i meant. i'll fit a 20A fuse. thanks

but, is the 15.6V all right?

The Suzuki manual gives 15.5V as the maximum voltage. Yours is a bit on the high side, if your meter is 100% correct, but not a real train smash if everything else is correct, wiring, voltage drops etc. You will just need to check the battery water slightly more regularly.

I think, try riding it with lights on, check the voltages and feel the R/R for excessive heat and see if it goes higher or stabilises a bit lower. Also do a test with your sensing wire directly to the battery if you have one.

 

[duaneage]

Use a 15 amp fuse, 10 is too small.

 

[posplayr]

The Suzuki manual gives 15.5V as the maximum voltage. Yours is a bit on the high side, if your meter is 100% correct, but not a real train smash if everything else is correct, wiring, voltage drops etc. You will just need to check the battery water slightly more regularly.

Well congrats looks like your charging system is now keeping up with the load and then some. :lol:


I know the Suzuki manual says 15.5v and it is probably because of the poor regulation and tolerances that that is all they could achieve, not that it is a good idea to cook the battery at 15.5v . The early OEM SCR R/R just don't do a good job of regulation.

Psyguy: What R/R are you using? And as a quick double check what are your regulator voltage drops after the stator install (same low less than 0.2v at 5000 rpm?).

Just so we understand; you are using a clamp on style amp meter or one is series? Depending upon your harness you should be able to measure charging current to the battery by clamping the red wire to the battery only (this is typically less than 2-3 amps). IIRC charging should be about C/10 so 30 amp-hour battery should charge at 3 amps (help me out here Matchless).

Also clamping at the red wire directly off the R/R you should see 8-10 amps.

The point of all this is that a Honda or a later model FET regulator should be regulating much better ; What R/R are you using now?

 

[Steve]

IIRC charging should be about C/10 so 30 amp-hour battery should charge at 3 amps (help me out here Matchless).

For long-term charging, it's best to maintain that C/10 rate ("C" is the capacity of the battery in amp-hours), but the fact of the matter is that, after starting the bike, the battery is more than just slightly discharged. The R/R is going to charge it at whatever the stator is putting out, minus what the bike is not using, there is no real regulation on just how much current goes to the battery. That is why, on the earlier bikes that had operating headlight switches, the third leg of the stator was switched off when the headlight was turned off. If you were to regulate that to C/10, you would have a very hard time keeping the battery charged if you only did short rides in town. The battery would never get charged.

By the way, most of our batteries are 12- or 14 amp-hour batteries.
A 30 amp-hour battery is just a bit larger than a garden tractor battery.

.

 

[posplayr]

The R/R is going to charge it at whatever the stator is putting out, minus what the bike is not using, there is no real regulation on just how much current goes to the battery.
.

I agree there is no specific or active current control. However the R/R voltage setpoint will control the amount of charging current to the extent that a higher setpoint will produce a higher charging current than a lower voltage setpoint. (i.e. 15.5V will have a higher/faster charging current than 14.0V ). For the same stator output at 14.0V the R/R is shorting more current back to the stator so less is going to the battery than what woudl happen at 15.5V.

So my suggestion was really to look at the charging current in comparision to the battery capacity to determine if the 15.5V was really too high. If at 5000 RPM the battery continues to receive C/5 or 2.6amps for a 13 amp-hr battery it will probably cook the battery and reduce it's life.

I was offering a way to evaluate the significance of the 15.5V charging voltage using steady state charging current as a guide (C/10 being closer to the desired level).

If you were to regulate that to C/10, you would have a very hard time keeping the battery charged if you only did short rides in town. The battery would never get charged.

.

As mentioned above, not advocating constant current charging at C/10 (there is no means of doing that short of designing a new R/R), but rather looking at the steady state charging of a fully charged battery being not much more than C/10. If you exceed that significantly the battery will just get hot and boil. If C/10 is being exceeded I would suggest getting an R/R that regulates closer to 14.5V which is the nominal set point of most of the later model FET based R/R's.

Acutally my first recommendation would be to just replace the R/R has Psyguys' seems to be regulating too high (assuming all his connections and everything else is good). But if he wants to determine if 15.5V charging is really ok the above will help to answer that question.

 

[duaneage]

After he drives around for a while maybe the charging voltage will come down a bit. He also might want to look at losses in the various switches and connections.

 

[posplayr]

After he drives around for a while maybe the charging voltage will come down a bit. He also might want to look at losses in the various switches and connections.

tested at 2000rpm (charging measured at the battery):
- headlight OFF = 14.8V
- headlight ON = voltage jumped to 15.6V, then after a few seconds the 10A in-line fuse on the RR+ wire burnt out.

Ok I see now he is using a Honda 6 wire regulator and the charging voltage is going up with the light on.

Might I offer a theory as to what is going on?

The voltage sense point is being loaded by the current going to the lights. That cause teh sense point to drop due to resistance between the R/R (+) and that sense point. The R/R increase it's output voltage to compensate.

My new recommendation is to

a.) Hook the R/R sense directly to the battery to confirm the light operation does not affect the charging voltages 14.8.

b.) See if the contacts cant be improved so that voltage drops between R/R and battery are lower.

c.) Connect the R/R sense point to a power relay (output) like the coil mod relay is best; if you dont have or want to do that then connect to the oil light switch

This should get you back to 14.5V nominal and you wont have to do the science experiment I previously described.

 

[Matchless]

Yes I agree, just try that sense wire temporary directly to the battery and check the voltage. If it comes down it confirms what Jim has said and you will confirm that your R/R is still healthy as well.

 

[Guest]

thanks guys for educating me on this issue.
you understand that after chasing my tail for a long time and spending considerable money i don't want to fry anything

i'll try the following first:

Yes I agree, just try that sense wire temporary directly to the battery and check the voltage. If it comes down it confirms what Jim has said and you will confirm that your R/R is still healthy as well.

 

[posplayr]

thanks guys for educating me on this issue.
you understand that after chasing my tail for a long time and spending considerable money i don't want to fry anything

i'll try the following first:

there is not much danger as the worst that could happen is you leave the sense wire disconnected and the R/R provides no regulation so charging voltages go to 17V at high RPM.

Do the test in the garage and sort before doing any road trips.:-&

 

[Speedo]

c.) Connect the R/R sense point to a power relay (output) like the coil mod relay is best; if you dont have or want to do that then connect to the oil light switch

This is really good advice. While ShirazDrum was here we tested the brake light switch on my bike that the RR sense wire was hooked to and it was about 9v. Not good. That tells the RR to keep charging the battery even if not needed (due to voltage drop over the years on old wire)....will cook your battery

Shiraz suggested wiring RR sense wire directly to battery positive in my case (which effectively "by-passes" sense wire). I will probably wire sense wire into my 'hot to coil' wire from relay after the coil mod as it tested out at 11.9v.

Does this make any sense to you?