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William Groebe
Guest
Responding to a few of you out there.
JT850GL- I am using all new (to me) rods that came with a new (to me) crankshaft. When the first rod blew I replaced the entire crankshaft and rod set with a new (to me) crankshaft and rod set.
tkent02- Because I was worried about the replacement bearings wearing down I bought and installed all new bearings according to the Modifications table in the manual, page 309.
tom203- I am still using the original oil pump and regulator. I'm not sure how to check anything on them. I have not taken either of them apart.
JT850GL- I am using all new (to me) rods that came with a new (to me) crankshaft. When the first rod blew I replaced the entire crankshaft and rod set with a new (to me) crankshaft and rod set.
tkent02- Because I was worried about the replacement bearings wearing down I bought and installed all new bearings according to the Modifications table in the manual, page 309.
tom203- I am still using the original oil pump and regulator. I'm not sure how to check anything on them. I have not taken either of them apart.
That's a red flag.
Yes, with a completely different rotating assembly and having the same failure, I'd say it's oiling system dependent.
Can you tell how oil gets fed to #4 crank bearing and then to its rod bearing? I'm wondering if it could be an obstruction in crankcase itself (since you have different crank and its oil holes to rod seem clear). I can see a worn out oil pump or faulty regulator causing long term problems, but this problem in #4 rod bearing is showing up too quickly and why just #4? It's almost like no oil is getting to this crankshaft position.
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William Groebe
Guest
Ok. So it's been a while. I'm finally back to figuring out what my next move is. To recap, after replacing the transmission on my bike last year and putting the engine back together the #4 rod bearings on the crankshaft wore down. I then took the engine back apart and replaced the crankshaft and rods with a replacement crankshaft and rod set, as well as installed all new bearings... yet the same problem happened again.
What I think: I didn't apply enough oil on the crankshaft and bearings during my first reassembly after the transmission replacement, so the bearings on rod#4 blew. During the second reassembly, after buying the replacement crankshaft I did put some oil on each bearing before installation, but the same problem happened again. Perhaps I should have applied moly paste to the new bearings, or when I put new oil in the bike there may still have been some metal dust from the worn bearing in the cases that the oil got thick and wouldn't travel smoothly throughout the crankshaft. Or perhaps I need a new oil pump.
What I'm going to do: I'm going to replace just the one set of bearings which blew on rod#4. I'm going to apply moly paste to all rod bearings during installation for extra lubrication. Also, when I put new oil in the bike I'm going to run it enough to get it warm, then drain the oil from the bike again, hopefully draining any remaining metal dust from the engine. Then I'll fill up the engine with oil and try again.
I looked into buying a new oil pump but the part is discontinued, so I'd have to buy a used one, of which I already have two (one from a parts bike). So instead I'm going to take apart the extra oil pump from the parts bike and check out it's innards. If I can take it apart easily enough and put it back together, I'll try opening up the original oil pump and check it for problems. Hopefully I can just clean it out, refurbish it, and replace it.
So, that's the plan. I'm going to have to wait a week or so for parts, then I'll be putting this baby back together... again.
What I think: I didn't apply enough oil on the crankshaft and bearings during my first reassembly after the transmission replacement, so the bearings on rod#4 blew. During the second reassembly, after buying the replacement crankshaft I did put some oil on each bearing before installation, but the same problem happened again. Perhaps I should have applied moly paste to the new bearings, or when I put new oil in the bike there may still have been some metal dust from the worn bearing in the cases that the oil got thick and wouldn't travel smoothly throughout the crankshaft. Or perhaps I need a new oil pump.
What I'm going to do: I'm going to replace just the one set of bearings which blew on rod#4. I'm going to apply moly paste to all rod bearings during installation for extra lubrication. Also, when I put new oil in the bike I'm going to run it enough to get it warm, then drain the oil from the bike again, hopefully draining any remaining metal dust from the engine. Then I'll fill up the engine with oil and try again.
I looked into buying a new oil pump but the part is discontinued, so I'd have to buy a used one, of which I already have two (one from a parts bike). So instead I'm going to take apart the extra oil pump from the parts bike and check out it's innards. If I can take it apart easily enough and put it back together, I'll try opening up the original oil pump and check it for problems. Hopefully I can just clean it out, refurbish it, and replace it.
So, that's the plan. I'm going to have to wait a week or so for parts, then I'll be putting this baby back together... again.
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60ratrod
Guest
Will,
you need to get all of those oil galleys and passages cleaned or it will happen again. perhaps a bit of the old three bond or some other sealant is blocking the galleys and passages. but this needs to happen or you will more than likely have to do it a 4th time.
you need to get all of those oil galleys and passages cleaned or it will happen again. perhaps a bit of the old three bond or some other sealant is blocking the galleys and passages. but this needs to happen or you will more than likely have to do it a 4th time.
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William Groebe
Guest
Good call, 60ratrod. I have sprayed compressed air and can shine light through all the passages I can see leading up to the crankshaft, and I will spray air through the crankshaft as well. But does anybody know where I can find a map of the oil passages in the cases? I can pretty much follow them from the oil pump but it might help.
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G
Guest
Guest
In the factory service manual, pages 5-19 and 5-20, not easy to decipher, however-
J
JCT
Guest
Hi, I?ve read your entire post and it seems too odd ... the problem has to be something else .... is there ANY sign that the piston might be touching a valve or head gasket...
On your original video the engine seems ok ontil you rev it up...so
I would also consider measuring the valve springs just to make sure that they have enough tension to jump back into place before the piston reaches. Also the camshaft could have something wrong with it, or some sort of timing problem..... But all this can be discarded by looking really closely to any posible wear on the piston itself.
Good luck
On your original video the engine seems ok ontil you rev it up...so
I would also consider measuring the valve springs just to make sure that they have enough tension to jump back into place before the piston reaches. Also the camshaft could have something wrong with it, or some sort of timing problem..... But all this can be discarded by looking really closely to any posible wear on the piston itself.
Good luck
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William Groebe
Guest
JCT. There is no noticeable wear on the pistons where the valves might hit them. I haven't measured the valve springs yet, but I can definitely do that next.
I had ordered a new bearing for the #4 rod and installed the rod and bearings today, used plastigage to get a measurement of the oil clearance, and I did the same for all the other three rods. The clearance was between .075-.08mm for all of them which is right at the service limit! The oil clearance should be within .024-.048mm. The service limit is .08mm so I'm right at the limit for all four rods! When I installed all four rods I measured the oil clearance and they were all within spec. Now they're all out of spec.
Maybe I just didn't put enough oil on the bearings during installation and they all wore down a bit? The bearings all do look worn down a little as if the coating wore off because they each show the brass color that I din't see when they were new. So all my bearings wore down which I may have ruined my crankshaft again by wearing down the journals.
Perhaps I can just order a thicker bearing for all rods. There are a few different options for bearings depending on which rod number or crankshaft journal number. My crankshaft journals are all #2. My rods are also all #2. According to the chart in the service manual on 3-41 that means I should order all Brown bearings. But if I order a Yellow bearing it is up to .004mm thicker, so perhaps that could fill in some of the extra oil clearance.
I kind of feel like giving up at this point. Help me out, fellas. What can I do?
I had ordered a new bearing for the #4 rod and installed the rod and bearings today, used plastigage to get a measurement of the oil clearance, and I did the same for all the other three rods. The clearance was between .075-.08mm for all of them which is right at the service limit! The oil clearance should be within .024-.048mm. The service limit is .08mm so I'm right at the limit for all four rods! When I installed all four rods I measured the oil clearance and they were all within spec. Now they're all out of spec.
Maybe I just didn't put enough oil on the bearings during installation and they all wore down a bit? The bearings all do look worn down a little as if the coating wore off because they each show the brass color that I din't see when they were new. So all my bearings wore down which I may have ruined my crankshaft again by wearing down the journals.
Perhaps I can just order a thicker bearing for all rods. There are a few different options for bearings depending on which rod number or crankshaft journal number. My crankshaft journals are all #2. My rods are also all #2. According to the chart in the service manual on 3-41 that means I should order all Brown bearings. But if I order a Yellow bearing it is up to .004mm thicker, so perhaps that could fill in some of the extra oil clearance.
I kind of feel like giving up at this point. Help me out, fellas. What can I do?
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60ratrod
Guest
The extra wear you are seeing is probably from metal debris floating around that caused the #4 to go out. Have the crank cleaned and journals polished and spec'd out to see exactly what you will need. I think it will be worth the extra $$ to have that done. Again, any reputable shop should be able to clean the crank and polish the journals
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William Groebe
Guest
I will look into having that done. Thanks, 60ratrod.
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William Groebe
Guest
Finally back to work on the old girl. I bought yet another replacement crankshaft off ebay and all new bearings for the crankshaft and rods. I've had the upper and lower crankcases cleaned out at a machine shop, so the oil passageways are clear and the cases are clean. I checked the oil clearance on all the rod and crankshaft journals and all are within spec and I'm ready to put her back together.
I'm going to be using moly paste on all journals, as per a mechanic friend of mine who says that's probably the mistake I made every time. Hopefully the moly paste will keep the journals and bearings well lubricated until oil starts pumping though the bike.
I'm excited... yet wary.
Wish me luck
I'm going to be using moly paste on all journals, as per a mechanic friend of mine who says that's probably the mistake I made every time. Hopefully the moly paste will keep the journals and bearings well lubricated until oil starts pumping though the bike.
I'm excited... yet wary.
Wish me luck
I'd say you are also determined and brave. Give yourself credit.
E
edgeofvamp
Guest
Just some personal practice when i assemble a motor that might help you out. This is to help get as much life from every part.
DO NOT touch any of the journals or bearing surfaces with your bare hands no matter how clean. As the natural oils on your hands will clog the bearing surface and will not give the oil anything to cling to. Use moly paste thin coat or a liberal coat of thick assembly lube(USE GLOVES). Seriously, i have actually seen fingerprints burned into bearings from people touching them.
Regardless of a brand new crank or not, have the journals polished just to ensure the best surface possible and then blow a cleaner through all of the oil passages followed by air to ensure that they are clean. You would be amazed by the junk i have seen come out of both brand new cranks and camshafts that were "cleaned" at the factory before shipping.
Plastigauge kind of works, but if you can find someone with a set of telescoping gauges and micrometer. That way you can get precise measurements of rod ends, crank journals, bearing races and torqued bearings(torque bearings in without crank). Get measurements at a couple different positions to check for out of round.
Make sure your source of oil flow is in good working order, someone else will have to step in on how to check that part out and what is within spec, as my general rule of thumb is replace every time.
When you get it assembled, let it idle for 5mins and then hold around 1,800rpms for 5mins to seat bearings and to flush the assembly lube or moly paste out. I wouldn't go much longer with an air cooled engine or the heat may become uneven or overheat certain parts particularly the center 2 cylinders.
I am always looking to learn and i hope the information i have picked up over the years helps. As everyone else has stated, i commend your patience and perseverance. Keep up the good work.
Then flush the oil and replace filter. Ride it nicely for about 10 miles and then evenly run it harder after that.
DO NOT touch any of the journals or bearing surfaces with your bare hands no matter how clean. As the natural oils on your hands will clog the bearing surface and will not give the oil anything to cling to. Use moly paste thin coat or a liberal coat of thick assembly lube(USE GLOVES). Seriously, i have actually seen fingerprints burned into bearings from people touching them.
Regardless of a brand new crank or not, have the journals polished just to ensure the best surface possible and then blow a cleaner through all of the oil passages followed by air to ensure that they are clean. You would be amazed by the junk i have seen come out of both brand new cranks and camshafts that were "cleaned" at the factory before shipping.
Plastigauge kind of works, but if you can find someone with a set of telescoping gauges and micrometer. That way you can get precise measurements of rod ends, crank journals, bearing races and torqued bearings(torque bearings in without crank). Get measurements at a couple different positions to check for out of round.
Make sure your source of oil flow is in good working order, someone else will have to step in on how to check that part out and what is within spec, as my general rule of thumb is replace every time.
When you get it assembled, let it idle for 5mins and then hold around 1,800rpms for 5mins to seat bearings and to flush the assembly lube or moly paste out. I wouldn't go much longer with an air cooled engine or the heat may become uneven or overheat certain parts particularly the center 2 cylinders.
I am always looking to learn and i hope the information i have picked up over the years helps. As everyone else has stated, i commend your patience and perseverance. Keep up the good work.
Then flush the oil and replace filter. Ride it nicely for about 10 miles and then evenly run it harder after that.
W
William Groebe
Guest
Thanks for the advice, edgeofvamp.
I've already put the lower end together. I didn't have the crank journals polished, but I cleaned them real well with a microfiber rag and parts cleaner.
I blew air through all the oil holes of the crankshaft and everything seemed fine.
I installed the bearings with gloves, not because I knew about the oils of my fingers, but because the damn bearings have sharp edges, man!
I will follow your advice on breaking it in once it's all back together.
Thanks again
I've already put the lower end together. I didn't have the crank journals polished, but I cleaned them real well with a microfiber rag and parts cleaner.
I blew air through all the oil holes of the crankshaft and everything seemed fine.
I installed the bearings with gloves, not because I knew about the oils of my fingers, but because the damn bearings have sharp edges, man!
I will follow your advice on breaking it in once it's all back together.
Thanks again
D
dantodd
Guest
Good luck man. This is a painful thread to read and I am in awe of your perseverance through a bitch of a problem. I hope you get your oil pump tested/sorted before you start her back up.