Wooden brakes - no feel at all

[AJ]

The brakes on my GS1100 have no feel at all, front or rear. They are firm and controllable, no pulsing, but they feel like blocks of wood.

The front master was beyond redemption when I got the bike, so I installed an old MC from an '85 GS550E I had laying around. I think this has a slightly smaller piston, so if anything the brakes should feel softer. The lines have been thoroughly flushed (twice, actually), but I have not pulled apart the calipers or the anti-dive assemblies. The caliper pistons move freely and there is no brake dragging.

The rear master cylinder was rebuilt, but not the caliper. Ditto the above, lines flushed, no dragging. Pedal is very firm, too firm. Again, a block of wood - no feel at all.

Bike has 13,000 miles. Don't know if the pads have been replaced, but they do have lots of life left in them, so they were probably replaced. All brake likes look original (yeah, not good), but that would likely make the brakes softer.

My inclination is that I'm just used to modern brakes on other bikes, but the brakes on my son's 1985 GS550e feel much better than the ones on the '82 1100.


Any thoughts?

 

[John Kat]

I bet the pads are 20 years old...
On top if you changed the pads around they are no longer bedded in...
Buying new pads will make a big difference after you bed them in carefully.
Clearly the brakes of that era can't be compared to today's material but with new pads and disks that are not too worn it should work pretty well.

 

[Nessism]

The braking system can be improved by:

- full system tear down and clean out
- fresh caliper grease on the sliding pins
- replace 30 year old rubber brake lines with Teflon/stainless type
- remove anti-dive devices and replace with block-off plates, or at least remove the line to the anti-dive
- fresh brake pads by quality supplier

Most GSR members are satisfied with upgrading their braking system using the above recommendation. The system can be further improved using more modern calipers/discs (find Salty_Monk's threads on the subject using the search feature). The 2nd generation 550 used twin piston calipers so that's likely why they feel better than the older single piston 1100 calipers. Take action as you deem appropriate.

 

[AJ]

The braking system can be improved by:

- full system tear down and clean out
- fresh caliper grease on the sliding pins
- replace 30 year old rubber brake lines with Teflon/stainless type
- remove anti-dive devices and replace with block-off plates, or at least remove the line to the anti-dive
- fresh brake pads by quality supplier

Most GSR members are satisfied with upgrading their braking system using the above recommendation. The system can be further improved using more modern calipers/discs (find Salty_Monk's threads on the subject using the search feature). The 2nd generation 550 used twin piston calipers so that's likely why they feel better than the older single piston 1100 calipers. Take action as you deem appropriate.

Yeah, I'm thinking that would be great, except

Caliper rebuild kits (front) $25 x 2 = $50
Brake pads (front) $35 x 2 = $70
Master cylinder rebuild $30
Brake lines $85
(assuming ditching the antidive)
-------------------------------------------------
Total $235

And that only does the front brakes!

I've seen fairly new calipers, lines, and masters on ebay for $60 - $100 for bikes like SV650. Starting to think that's the best route. Or even do the fork swap!

 

[Nessism]

I doubt the SV calipers will fit without spacing the discs outboard of the wheel. Hope you have access to a machine shop and know your way around the equipment.

A complete front end swap may be a better idea, although the forks are shorter so the front end will drop, plus there will be lots of other parts to adapt which will add significantly to the cost.

 

[Steve]

Yeah, I'm thinking that would be great, except

Caliper rebuild kits (front) $25 x 2 = $50
Brake pads (front) $35 x 2 = $70
Master cylinder rebuild $30
Brake lines $85
(assuming ditching the antidive)
-------------------------------------------------
Total $235

And that only does the front brakes!

How much do you think the Emergency Room bill will be when you can't stop in time? :-k

'Nuff said.

.

 

[Vmass]

How much do you think the Emergency Room bill will be when you can't stop in time? :-k

'Nuff said.

.

That was my first thought, as well!!

 

[AJ]

The brakes stop fine. Could probably do a stoppie. They just feel like garbage and was wondering if anyone else has this complaint.

I haven't looked at the brake calipers too much, but am thinking anything with a single-sided caliper might be able to work. For example, the SV650. The 650 is lighter, much lighter, but I'll bet those brakes are tons better than what came on the 1100e.

 

[Big T]

You could start by replacing the brake pads, then the brakes lines and clean out the calipers

This is most likely the problem

I did the Twinpot upgrade. Great feel and I can lock the front tire if needed. But it isn't cheap

Changing to a newer caliper has lots of hidden costs. Rebuilds are always a possibility.

I'm upgrading my 79 with a 92 Katana front end. The brake seals alone run $240

 

[steve murdoch]

Glazed pads?
You might be able to salvage them with some sandpaper.
Too much heat from riding the brakes or a slightly stuck brake piston forcing the pads onto the rotors, sometimes a warped rotor can cause the heat build-up.

 

[koolaid_kid]

Glazed pads?
You might be able to salvage them with some sandpaper.
Too much heat from riding the brakes or a slightly stuck brake piston forcing the pads onto the rotors, sometimes a warped rotor can cause the heat build-up.

This is probably your only recourse besides rebuilding/replacing parts.
Get a pane of glass or some other very flat surface. Start with fairly coarse sandpaper (I use the black wet-r-dry type), say 80 grit. Sand it down until fresh pad appears on the entire pad. Then use a finer grit (220 should do) to buff it down to a smooth surface. Then take your 220 and also knock the glaze off your rotors. Do not go in a circular fashion, go in and out, across the surface rather than around. Do this until shiny metal is showing. That is about the best you can do without spending money.
Best of luck.
p.s. New pads would be your best investment, IMHO.

 

[AJ]

Thanks, guys. I'll pull the pads in front and see if they are glazed. Entirely possible. Will report back.

 

[cowboyup3371]

I'm just surprised you are that worried about price when it comes to something your life depends on. I can see finding cheaper alternatives to tires or plugs but brakes?

Strange

 

[tkent02]

I'm just surprised you are that worried about price when it comes to something your life depends on. I can see finding cheaper alternatives to tires or plugs but brakes?

Strange

I'd rather have weak brakes than weak tires any day.

 

[koolaid_kid]

I'd rather have weak brakes than weak tires any day.

I'd rather you had weak brakes than me.
Just joshing, I won't go out without both being good.

 

[AJ]

Nobody said my brakes are weak. They just don't have very good feel to them. In past experience, brakes usually are weak or mushy. In this case, they are quite firm, and decently strong. It is not hard to slow the bike or make a hard stop. I just don't like the feel of them. Maybe the pads are some kind of ceramic or something. I really didn't look at them that hard, other than to notice that they have tons of pad material left in them.

Sorry if anybody mistook my parts bill estimate to mean cheap. Sure, I'm frugal, but what I was doing was making the consideration between rebuilding these brakes and maybe doing an upgrade. Think of it like comparing Race Tech do your antique forks vs. a front end swap. Heck, with the parts bill for rebuilding the brakes, I'd be halfway to a whole front end swap anyway!

 

[Normk]

Some very good suggestions already provided but didn't see a suggestion that the pad material has deteriorated from moisture and sitting around. I see this fairly frequently on classic bikes which have seen little usage for several years.

I have had decent success by using the brakes sufficiently over a few days to heat and cook out the water. (That's my theory but only empirical evidence) As someone noted, the old linings aren't in the league of the new compositions and the old calipers and rotors aren't modern either.

Have you compared your old steed with a similar bike of the same vintage. It sounds as though you are quite experienced so just wondering if you have forgotten how wooden these old brakes are compared with new ones?

I have to completely change my riding when switching between my ST1100 and GS850G. The ST is just a heavier version of a modern sport bike but the GS is definitely classic. She does her job well but with a different feel.

Failing any better theory, I recommend that you follow the advice listed to inspect, clean and lube, resurface the pads using sandpaper and also the rotors. See how that performs and then look for another classic comparison.

The person who recommended sandpaper is right on target. Do not use emery, carborundum paper or other papers intended for metal finishing. The harder particles of emery and carborundum papers can embed into the lining and act as a cutting tip on the rotor. Use sandpaper of a type intended for woodworking or flint paper.

When removing the glaze from the rotor, it is helpful to attempt to achieve an asymmetric sanding pattern.

 

[TheCafeKid]

I think norm may have hit it on the head here.
If you're comparing the feel of your GSes brakes to those of something from even 10 years ago, they're going to feel horrible.
That was the biggest thing for me to get used to when I first bought my ZRX. That thing will stop your face off with very little effort and the braking is very linear and the feel is fairly even throughout the lever pull minus that first initial bite, or unless the pads are wet (HH pads don't like being cool and or wet) Nearly tossed myself over the bars the first few times simply because I was so used to older bikes and their rather dead feel. I'd done everything short of more modern calipers on my 1100, SS lines, smaller bore MC, etc. Yes, it was better than stock, and they stopped the bike well enough but compared to the Rex the felt bloody dangerous in retrospect.
It does change up some of your style. I got used to the brakes on the various GSes being adequate, but trained myself to more or less ride twisties as though they weren't there at all. It was in a way helpful in teaching myself about gear selection, compression braking, and "when in doubt, gas it out" so to speak.

But the Rex is an entirely different animal. It doesn't have that massive crank spinning to slow you down with compression braking. It does it, but differently. You really have to have it spun up for it to jerk itself down. So I learned, after nearly endo-ing a couple times, that a single finger feathering the lever just before tip in would reel her in just enough. I wouldn't dared have expected that on my GS. The brakes may have done it just fine, but the feedback at the lever wouldn't let me trust it.

 

[salty_monk]

The twinpot upgrade can be reasonable.... a lot depends on how good you are at watching Ebay.

For example a complete set off a 2005 concourse went for about $50 the other day. They were very unlikely to need rebuilding just a clearout & the pads looked useable.

Add to that Honda rotors which can be had for $50 if you're patient & an $80 kit from me & you have very good brakes for less than $200. New lines can be made for about $45 if you buy parts from Earls, use a 2 line setup with chrome rather than their stainless fittings & a short loop over the fender from one caliper to the other.

SV650 brakes could likely be made to fit but probably require a 3D bracket, a decent engineer & some machine time to get them to work safely

 

[AJ]

Thanks for the last few posts, guys. I feared this was starting to turn into one of those "trash the stupid forum newbie" threads.

I've read reviews in the mags about "wooden brakes" over the years, but this is the first time I've really known what they meant. Even Harley brakes - which require a firm squeeze - feel better than these. My son's 1985 GS550 has less than 5000 miles and I'm pretty sure those brake pads are original. They're opposed twin-pots up front and they feel tons better than this 1100.

Salty, I'm giving thought to your Kawi Concours upgrade path. That does make sense compared to just rebuilding these and it's good you've done the engineering. While I do own a small hobby lathe, I don't currently have convenient access to a real end mill needed to make those plates.

I'm also considering a front end swap, but that would ruin some of the "classic" aspect that attracted me to this bike in the first place. On the other hand, who would go through all that trouble and not go inverted?!