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would you replace a stator with these readings?

  • Thread starter Thread starter don_gibb6512
  • Start date Start date
posplayr said:
bakalorz,
I raised the ground neutral as a possibility to explain all of the shorted stators. No I did not think this was an OE design, but rather a possibility from some after market suppliers.

What aftermarket supplier would be so stupid to supply stators that are guaranteed to fail instantly ... every single time in every single bike.

And don't forget, they have to have someone at least semi-competent to design the thing, and I guarantee you THEY actually understand the way the system works MUCH better than you do.

Thanks for your explanation, however, it can be simplified much further. Looking at the individual winding if neutral and ground were connected each would be shorted through a diode which would render the stator inoperable for at least 1/2 a phase.

Good, you finally get it

So we can therefore conclude that all of these shorted (to ground ) stators are either damaged, improperly installed or have manufacturing defects.

This only increases the argument that the stator pages should avoid doing open circuit stator tests.

How on earth do you draw that conclusion.
whatever else you do or don't answer, provide a cogent argument supporting your above sentence.

As far "Dunning?Kruger effect", thats pretty funny :p. The fact that I explored the possibility of a shorted ground is certainly not sufficient to draw that conclusion. Look whose jumping to erroneous conclusions; certainly none for me???

Bullsh!t ... there is no way to interpret posts 43, 47 and 55 that doesn't show you to be jumping to erroneous conclusions about the way ground works on the stator.

You are just slinging mud now, but then again that has been your style since I have known of you.

Better to sling mud than bull, which is what you frequently sling.

You might also note that I slung no mud in post 44 where I first explained why you were wrong about any manufacturer making a grounded neutral.

But getting a reply that indicates that not only do you not understand the system, but are unwilling to even TRY to understand it ...

I have reasonable patience explaining something to someone who is ignorant of how it works, but willful ignorance and stubbornly refusing to understand (especially when its part of an ongoing pattern of such)... yep, post 47 annoyed me

I had hoped that you might have matured a little ; you have had an additional two year to do that. :(
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posplayr said:
In Electrical Engineering analysis of 3 phase power, "Balanced" refers to all three phases from the stator being of equal amplitude and each 120 degrees out of phase with each other. In that condition the neutral of the Wye configuration is zero volts with respect to ground because all three phases (when balanced) sum to zero.

Things that make the three phase unbalanced, are among other things:

  • imperfect winding that make the voltages slightly different in voltage or phase
  • shorted winding that make the winding less equal
  • regulation causes imbalance because you no longer have sine wave symmetry when the R/R SHUNT a leg.
  • Running one of the stator legs to the head lamp switch.
In house wiring, there is a neutral and a ground. The ground is literally that , a piece of copper wire running into the ground. The neutral is actually this balancing point in the 3 phase power. Neutral and ground can be close but they due to imperfections they are not the same.

BTW most of the SHUNT R/R use an SCR, that is fired by the zener control. The new FET type are more digitally controlled as the SERIES R/R's are as well. The Electric Bike SERIES implementation also uses SCR's


As far as oil breaking down the insulation, well maybe if the stator were able to last that long. My Electrosport got brown in 250 miles. So chemical breakdown of the insulation, was not a factor. Running low on oil certainly is though as the reduction in cooling does play in big part in the stator longevity.
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If you are running a 3-phase AC motor then you may need balanced phases. But if you use a rectifier, it splits the phases and changes them to DC with no regard to voltage or current. The only time a neutral is used on a wye configuration is for splitting the phases to single phase AC and it is never used on motorcycle. Go ahead and try to find one on a factory wiring diagram a neutral wye stator. You won?t, so this neutral is a ?dead horse?. The sum of zero when grounded is not in factory repair manuals. Phases can be split and used for different loads, like house wiring is a single phase of a 3-phase system. Yes house wiring uses a neutral so it can split a phase in two parts of 120 volt and together make 240 volt. House wiring is not like motorcycle wiring. The sine wave symmetry is removed via the rectifier and battery. The only place you will sine wave is at stator before the rectifier. All charging systems are this way, so. Has anyone tested sine wave on a stator? If they did what did they use and what was the peak to peak?

BTW a SCR is a thyristor and if you don?t believe me check the 1980 GS1000 factory manuals. How can someone know so much about motorcycles and not read the factory manuals?

As far as oil breaking down the insulation, it?s what I believe. Insulation break down is what causes a short condition and of course you should know this already. Does Suzuki make the Electrosport and is that a stator or regulator? If it is not a factory Suzuki stator or regulator then there is the 250 mile problem. Aftermarket parts are not always the best parts.
 
Graham said:
If you are running a 3-phase AC motor then you may need balanced phases. But if you use a rectifier, it splits the phases and changes them to DC with no regard to voltage or current. The only time a neutral is used on a wye configuration is for splitting the phases to single phase AC and it is never used on motorcycle. Go ahead and try to find one on a factory wiring diagram a neutral wye stator. You won’t, so this neutral is a “dead horse”. The sum of zero when grounded is not in factory repair manuals. Phases can be split and used for different loads, like house wiring is a single phase of a 3-phase system. Yes house wiring uses a neutral so it can split a phase in two parts of 120 volt and together make 240 volt. House wiring is not like motorcycle wiring. The sine wave symmetry is removed via the rectifier and battery. The only place you will sine wave is at stator before the rectifier. All charging systems are this way, so. Has anyone tested sine wave on a stator? If they did what did they use and what was the peak to peak?
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Graham,
I did not equate all aspects of 3 phase power systems to 3 phase PM generator operation. What I did do is describe to you what I meant by the term "balanced" and why that was analogous to the notion of balanced three phase power (I thought that is the question you asked:() . Specifically the condition of balance is characterized by three phases of equal amplitude and 120 degrees out of phase.

So thank you for your lesson on splitting phases, but that is actually irrelevant to the notion of balance. The factors I did mention all do effect balance ( as I defined it) and the clearest indication of imbalance is from the AC ripple you see at the output of the regulator.

You may or may not have noticed if a winding is going out you can have more AC ripple and your gas gauge will jump around more. One of the primary reasons we have 3 phase power instead of 2 phase or 5 phase is that in a balanced configuration full wave rectification of 3 phase results in very low ripple without the need to further increase the number of phases.

As far as having measured the AC power signal in the stator, yes I have described those tests and documented here for everybody's benefit.




Graham said:
BTW a SCR is a thyristor and if you don’t believe me check the 1980 GS1000 factory manuals. How can someone know so much about motorcycles and not read the factory manuals?
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Using our "definitive resource" Wikipedia, a SCR may be a thyristor, but a thyristor is not always an SCR. Most all references I recall describe R/R as using SCR's.

With reference to your comment re GS1000 factory manuals. Sorry , I don't usually spend much time with 8V manuals as I only have 16V bikes. I do have most of the manuals for those, but I have not committed all of them to memory. I'll have to take your word that 8V R/R's are different to 16V R/R's, as the 8V use thyristors and not SCR's.

With respect to your comment about me not reading factory manuals, please watch your tone with me; I really do not like or in any way appreciate that.




Graham said:
As far as oil breaking down the insulation, it’s what I believe. Insulation break down is what causes a short condition and of course you should know this already. Does Suzuki make the Electrosport and is that a stator or regulator? If it is not a factory Suzuki stator or regulator then there is the 250 mile problem. Aftermarket parts are not always the best parts.
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Well you can believe what you want but I have done enough work studying and measuring stators to know that while insulations can chemically break down, most don't last long enough for that to occur. Most burnt stators show no clear evidence of chemical breakdown. They are usually just fried to a crisp due to an inability to dissipate heat.
 
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bakalorz said:
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Bakalorz,

I'm not sure why you feel such an overwhelming urge to assail me with insults and twisted arguments however that is clearly what you are doing.

"Been there, done that; have the shirt"

I actually have some more interesting things to do than banter back and forth with you because I already know you can't stay on topic and your posts start getting longer and longer avoiding the point of a conversation.

Was there a point to this one? Oh yea you almost made me forget. Now I remember; yea ball is in your court but you failed to return it. Instead you knocked over the Porta Potty:eek:.

Sorry, you are being more that a simple pest AGAIN and you are back on ignore. :evil:
 
Hey guys....I have a friend that has a Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator thats not working. Any ideas..........;)........
 
Bakalorz, not to be a ding dong, but if you think replace with known good and retest is the sign of an amateur, don't ever read a Ford factory repair manual.

Many times the quickest way to diagnose is to replace with known good and retest. If someone is going to buy a 30 year old bike and make it a reliable mode of transportation then they better have some cash saved up. It is MUCH cheaper in the long run to own a newer bike than an antique. I bought 2 spare 12 pole stators off Ebay when I realized no one make them any more. Both test good off the bike (for what that is worth) if I need to swap one in then I will either rewind the bad one or send it out to be rewound.

I cant argue with anything Pos has stated, I am impressed at his level of knowledge when it comes to motorcycle electronics. He has retrofitted bikes with fuel injection and upgrades that would be difficult for me to pull off ( I hold L1/L2 and A1-8 SAE Certs).

Not to be a ass but Pos has proved himself many times with successful projects that bring a smile to my face and make me wish he lived next door so I could pick his brains.
 
The OP received my Honda RR kit, I would suggest installing it and seeing if that solves the problem.
 
posplayr said:
Graham,
I did not equate all aspects of 3 phase power systems to 3 phase PM generator operation..
Click to expand...

You brought up house wiring.

What I did do is describe to you what I meant by the term "balanced" and why that was analogous to the notion of balanced three phase power (I thought that is the question you asked:() . Specifically the condition of balance is characterized by three phases of equal amplitude and 120 degrees out of phase..
Click to expand...

Thank you. But balanced is irrelevant to motorcycle diagnosis and repair.
Balance is irrelevant to operation and longevity. All motorcycle three phase systems are 120 degrees. If it is not 120 degrees it is not unbalanced, it is broke. If you have low voltage on a phase it is not unbalanced, it has a short or open.

So thank you for your lesson on splitting phases, but that is actually irrelevant to the notion of balance. The factors I did mention all do effect balance ( as I defined it) and the clearest indication of imbalance is from the AC ripple you see at the output of the regulator. .You may or may not have noticed if a winding is going out you can have more AC ripple and your gas gauge will jump around more.
Click to expand...

Once again splitting phases is irrelevant to motorcycle diagnosis and repair. Splitting phases will make the phases have unbalanced current so splitting phases (like the headlight switch does) relevant to your balance thing.


If there is an AC ripple coming out of the regulator it is not imbalance but a bad rectifier in the regulator. A bad winding with a good rectifier/regulator will cause a DC pulse (most voltmeters can?t tell it from AC) not an AC ripple. Both will play hell on electronics.

One of the primary reasons we have 3 phase power instead of 2 phase or 5 phase is that in a balanced configuration full wave rectification of 3 phase results in very low ripple without the need to further increase the number of phases.

As far as having measured the AC power signal in the stator, yes I have described those tests and documented here for everybody's benefit..
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All motorcycles use single or three phase charging coils (stator) because that is the standard for producing electricity. The standard for removing ripple from AC rectification is to put capacitors in line not more or less phases.Can you show us a 2 or 5 phase in use?

In your testing have you used an oscilloscope on a stator to measure the sine wave for balanced?

Using our "definitive resource" Wikipedia, a SCR may be a thyristor, but a thyristor is not always an SCR. Most all references I recall describe R/R as using SCR's.

With reference to your comment re GS1000 factory manuals. Sorry , I don't usually spend much time with 8V manuals as I only have 16V bikes. I do have most of the manuals for those, but I have not committed all of them to memory. I'll have to take your word that 8V R/R's are different to 16V R/R's, as the 8V use thyristors and not SCR's.
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The factory manual for the 1980 GS1000E/ST 8v says ?SCR (Thyristor)?. The same regulator used on the 1982 GS1000S 16v. SCR or Thyristor doesn?t matter, doing same thing in the regulator. Most 8 valve and 16 valve regulators are the same for the displacement.

With respect to your comment about me not reading factory manuals, please watch your tone with me; I really do not like or in any way appreciate that..
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Sorry to offend you. Maybe I was a little out of line? I just felt maybe you should check someone?s source before you go and correct someone. I have been checking yours.

Well you can believe what you want but I have done enough work studying and measuring stators to know that while insulations can chemically break down, most don't last long enough for that to occur. Most burnt stators show no clear evidence of chemical breakdown. They are usually just fried to a crisp due to an inability to dissipate heat.
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Yes insulation can break down chemically, we agree. And if the insulation breaks down it burns the stator. Heat is a factor too.
How long is long enough? 5, 10, 20 years and how old is the GS line? I have no evidence of chemical break down, just something to think about.
 
duaneage said:
The OP received my Honda RR kit, I would suggest installing it and seeing if that solves the problem.
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I almost hate to interject at this point but yeah, thanks Duane. I'm not taking any chances and have an Electrosport stator on it's way. The gasket is coming from Z1 along with a much overdue SS bolt kit. Gonna say "good riddance" to those stinking Phillips head bolts once and for all !! :)
 
Some folks need to go back to beginning of this too long discussion and recall that don reported strange ohm readings, yet was getting 12.8 v to battery- he later amended this to say he was only getting 12.08, or no charging output. Trying to equate 60 cycle three phase wiring with what a bike's charging system is doing is just distraction- the frequency might be ten times higher; even higher if they could jam more poles on it. But they can't, cuz there's a limit to how small the stator windings could be reliably manufactured.
I can't understand why anyone would believe that oil would degrade the stator windings- the stator suppliers know the enviroment their product was headed for. Look at how the stator windings leave the stator pole assembly- at the very bottom where they are sure to be immersed in oil.
As far as I can see, posplayr is constantly updating the testing procedures as new info comes along. It's important that everyone taking readings, does it correctly, so confusion is minimized. It's pointless to snipe at each other, just because you have a different opinion.
 
don_gibb6512 said:
I almost hate to interject at this point but yeah, thanks Duane. I'm not taking any chances and have an Electrosport stator on it's way. The gasket is coming from Z1 along with a much overdue SS bolt kit. Gonna say "good riddance" to those stinking Phillips head bolts once and for all !! :)
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Replacing the stator will give you a chance to make sure none of the leads are pinched anywhere. The charging system is really quite simple, there is no need for over analyzing it to death.
 
Now oil is ruining stators, OK that's s new one. Not sure why most of my stators are still working after thirty some years swimming in oil. Maybe I'm just lucky.
 
don_gibb6512 said:
I almost hate to interject at this point but yeah, thanks Duane. I'm not taking any chances and have an Electrosport stator on it's way. The gasket is coming from Z1 along with a much overdue SS bolt kit. Gonna say "good riddance" to those stinking Phillips head bolts once and for all !! :)
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Sorry, didn?t intend on jacking your thread. Hope the stator works for you.
 
Graham said:
Sorry, didn?t intend on jacking your thread. Hope the stator works for you.
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No worries. It's been a great debate and I'm learning a lot from it. I hope to get this stator out today and tested in the lab this week. I'll be sure to post the results.

The only thing that really stinks is I have to do all this work on the side of my house where I've got about a 7 foot width workspace. This would have been the perfect weekend as far as weather goes to install everything but I won't have the new stator until next weekend at the earliest and temps are dropping pretty quick now.

Don
 
don_gibb6512 said:
And 3 of 3:
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I would say that all those shots definitely , undeniably, irrefutably show chemical breakdown of the stator insulation due to the effects of caustic oil on cheap non OEM parts :rolleyes:







Well either that or it just burnt up from a SHUNT regulator shorting the winding too much
 
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