78 GS1K Carb Rejet? Bad Fuel Economy - KEITH KRAUSE!

[Hoomgar]

Mark, I don't know what you mean in your first sentence, about this bike wants 90 mph at 1/3 throttle. ???

Keith, that simply is saying that in 5th gear 1/3 throttle gives me 90+ miles per hour on the clock. Nothing more nothing less.

I'm sorry if you want to give up. I didn't expect that. It's your bike and your time.

Keith, what the hell are you talking about buddy????? I don't recall saying anything anywhere ever about giving up? I am on this. I thought we were going to get this dialed in? I think you misread something?

I spent a lot of time too but that's the way it goes. I seriously doubt that many people would stick with you as I have. I'm not complaining, just wish it worked out. I know you've worked at this and we all have reasons that change our plans/ideas. This topic has been viewed a lot and I considered it a good chance to help others too. I wanted it to work out just as much as you.

Are you saying your giving up? I mean, I sure cannot expect anything of you as this is free help on a public forum but I was really starting to learn a lot and get somewhere with this old beast with your help. Don't throw in the towel on me yet buddy. I still have much fight left in me!

Your bike is showing unknown problems. You told me over the phone that monkeys have worked on this bike. Anything is possible. The weaker coil fix was a step forward but there's obviously other differences to discover. I'd love to check and do work on the bike myself, but that's not possible.
If you go back and read the first part of my first reply to this topic, I said to use a DJ jet kit. The stock needles just don't work sometimes, especially with K&N's. I mentioned this again as we went along. I know what gives good results with this bike. But I can only suggest, not force something on a person.
Would a DJ kit fix this bike? Yes...if the rest of the bike is right.
Again, don't take this post the wrong way. I'm just disappointed for you.

Well then your the only one. I am not disappointed at all and am far from discouraged. this is an old bike with unknown problems just as you said. The plan is to get it running as best we can with as safe a burn as we can get it before the rally. obviously I will have to take it on the trip that way them. But just as I had shared with you when we spoke, when I get back, I plan on finishing this.


Keith, you have been a champ in helping me out with this. I never intended for it to be burdon. I was having fun learning this. I am sorry if this issue has been burning you out. I consider you a friend and a knowledgable source of info to help me get it squared away.

I hope you reconsider. I was really counting on your help. But I have no control over the condition the bike was in when I got it. I only have the power to change/fix it.

My sincerest apologies for the overload.

 

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Mark, I read your reply to my post and you said the bike ran good. However, we can see the plugs still say we have a lean problem. Then Duane replied about his opinions on pods. The next thing I see is you saying you want to get a stock airbox 8O . Then Earl chimes in with his thoughts about pods. It certainly sounded like you planned to drop the re-jet and go back to stock. I'm like...what??
Whatever's going on with your bike and the difficulties we have, an airbox and stock jets won't fix things. Something else is wrong. But if you're still game for the re-jet, I'll try to get back with you tonight.
I have to go. I'll talk to you later.

 

[Hoomgar]

Mark, I read your reply to my post and you said the bike ran good. However, we can see the plugs still say we have a lean problem. Then Duane replied about his opinions on pods. The next thing I see is you saying you want to get a stock airbox 8O . Then Earl chimes in with his thoughts about pods. It certainly sounded like you planned to drop the re-jet and go back to stock. I'm like...what??
Whatever's going on with your bike and the difficulties we have, an airbox and stock jets won't fix things. Something else is wrong. But if you're still game for the re-jet, I'll try to get back with you tonight.
I have to go. I'll talk to you later.

Keith, I first started talking about a stock aibox back on the first page of this thread on my 5th post on April 21st. At that time I put a wanted add in the wanted to buy section. I have spoken about an air box several times throughout the thread. This wasn't the first time buddy

I am kicking ideas around. Sure as heck doesn't mean I am giving up on any particular idea.

Tonight I go to Paparo's to put the output shaft seal in. Then I am back on it.

Thx for not givin up on me man

You rock!

 

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Okie dokie!
I'll cut through all the chit-chat and tell you what I'd try at this point. If you later want to know my reasoning, we'll talk. I'm trying to get this to you in time so you can work on it, if that's what you have planned. I know you're running out of time.
For this particular bike, these are the adjustments I'd make if the bike was here. I know it's your time and you must be getting tired of taking things apart, but that's jetting/trouble shooting. :roll:
If everything is still the same since your last test:
Turn the pilot fuel screws (underneath) OUT an additional 1/2 turn for carbs 2 and 3. Keep a record.
Take the bowls off 2 and 3 and VERIFY your previous float level adjustments. If they're set correctly, which I believe you did at .94/.95"?, re-set the measurement to .92". That's still within the factory spec's (.90-.98") and will make it just a little easier for the jets to draw fuel.
If they WERE off (too lean) then set them to the optimum .94/ 95".
Set them exactly. The vernier should B-A-R-E-L-Y graze the top of the float, if that. You know what I mean.
Next, VERIFY the previous vacuum levels, just to see if we have a sticky slide or two at 2 and 3. If the initial level(s) you read at 2 and 3 are low, we may have found a problem. If they're still the way you set them, try this.
Add just a little vacuum to 2 and 3 with a re-synch.
Try to add between 1/2" and 3/4" of vacuum to 2 and 3...so they're that much higher than 1 and 4. Don't touch 1 and 4. Generally, this amount of difference is acceptable and will not be significant enough to hinder performance. You're still in the range of a good synch.
These 3 adjustments are all considered normal. You have to make allowances for different cylinders, as long as you don't go beyond spec's or common sense. This will hopefully result in good performance and good plug reads too.
Hope this helps. Talk to you later.

 

[skip]

Am I wrong in my thinking? I thought that the needle falls into the mainjet , therefore the larger the hole size in the main jet the more fuel will pass through and around the needle even at partial throttle when you are just "on the needle," Or the needle is only partialy inserted in the main jet. If hoomie just increases the main jet size (say one size in the center cyls like my ZRX was from the factory) ,wont that richen the cylinders in the middle and help his lean condition? one jet size wont really make that much difference in performance but may darken up those white plugs. Hoomie has said the bike runs well but the plugs are lean. Why would kawasaki run there inside cylinders richer? if its good for kawi, why not hoomie? just thinkin out loud folks anybody agree or dissagree? ..................skip

 

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Skip, the fuel will be regulated at the smallest passage or gap along the needle jet and tapered jet needle and main jet.
Generally, when the throttle is at 3/4, this is the point where the gap becomes larger at the needle jet and tapered jet needle and so the smallest passage, now through the main jet, regulates the fuel flow.
In the case of a correctly set up 78/79 1000 in good mechanical condition, you would not need to install larger mains in the 2/3 cylinders to help with 3/4 throttle and above. If you did, this would be compensation jetting. Compensating for something else wrong.
Yes, it can work, but it usually creates another problem.

 

[Hoomgar]

Ok that's what I will do tonight. One thing to make clear to my helpers and all readers. This is fun for me. I enjoy it and taking the carbs out and tinkering/learning is no bother. I am having a blast.

I say that because I know it looks like there has been frustration in this thread related to getting these carbs dialed in. But there isn't any frustration on my part. Maybe the guys trying to teach me

The thread has gone 10 pages already! I never intended that but I have been enjoying every minute of this. I encourage anyone else who wants to learn this stuff and get their bike running right to except that it may take a good bit of time to get it right at first attempt and to enjoy the process of getting there.

I haven?t arrived by any means. But I will!

That said, back to business. Tonight, carbs come off.

Floats in 2 & 3 are getting set to .92 or at least just a tad higher.
I am going to test these levels with a clear tube as recommended in other threads.

Once that is right I am going out ? turn on the pilot screws for 2 & 3.

Recheck WOT setting screw. Back in the bike.

Recheck sync first!

Recheck air screws for max idle.

Plug test run.


BTW...

My oil leak is fixed
Check it: http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/viewtopic.php?p=348342#348342

 

[wrench]

What happened to your dinner date and a movie buddy :?

 

[Hoomgar]

What happened to your dinner date and a movie buddy :?

OK, adendum here...

The work posted above is for after that? :?

If there is time. Your not going to report me to the sesitivity police are you John? Or Nancy! 8O

I get so wrapped up I forget stuff. But never worry, there is no way I would have been able to forget.

Look at the picture in your mind, work duds on, gasey smell on hands tinkering with carbs on bench, Nancy comes out "what time where you planning on us leaving?"

Me thinking carefully for a minute. Then replying, I?ll be ready in 5 minutes. Acting all the while like I was just making busy while waiting on her.

Thx John

This brings a whole new angle to the term "help thread" 8)

There is always Saturday. Right? What else am I forgetting :? 8-[

 

[wrench]

Hey i just didn't want too see ya getting in trouble with the Boss :wink:

 

[skip]

Skip, the fuel will be regulated at the smallest passage or gap along the needle jet and tapered jet needle and main jet.
Generally, when the throttle is at 3/4, this is the point where the gap becomes larger at the needle jet and tapered jet needle and so the smallest passage, now through the main jet, regulates the fuel flow.
In the case of a correctly set up 78/79 1000 in good mechanical condition, you would not need to install larger mains in the 2/3 cylinders to help with 3/4 throttle and above. If you did, this would be compensation jetting. Compensating for something else wrong.
Yes, it can work, but it usually creates another problem.

ok keith Im catching on here , but i thought hoomies plug readings were at less then 3/4 throttle? he is jetting and adjusting for midrange or needle setting no? I agree with you that he may be compensating for somthing else, but if the other adjustments have not worked then maybe going up one jet size on the center two cylinders should be considered. When I jetted the stock 1150 carbs with k&n's I got a jet kit from FOURS AND MORE it was a performance shop out of california that the magazine Motorcyclist used all the time in the 80's That jet kit also came with different size main jets for the center two cylinders. the reasoning was two fold. one was that somtimes the outside cylinders have so much air passing over them that they create a vacume and make it hard for the air to get sucked into those clinders so they rin richer. The other reason was somtimes you ride with your legs ( on the 1150 anyhow) right up against the out side cylinders once again blocking air to those cylinders and making them run rich. Could be a bunch of crap, but the bike ran great with the two different jets installed and so did my ZRX. Hoomie will be riding about 400 miles a day(Mostly in the midrange on the needles)) for 5 days or so so as a last resort, he should do what ever he has to to get those clinders richer. You are A much better tech adviser than me and I marval at your knowledge. keep up the good work :lol:

 

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Mark, be real exact about the float levels at 2/3.
Check it first, just in case you could have done something wrong the first time. If they're at .94 or .95, then go to .92". If you did set them wrong (too lean or higher than .95), then set them to .94.
Do the same with the synch. Check the initial levels at 2/3. I'd like to know if they "moved" lower than 1 and 4. That would suggest sticky slides. Sometimes, quite often actually, you can clean up the inside of the carb cylinder with Semi-chrome, Blue Magic, or Mothers aluminum polish, to a mirror shine and that will help a sticky slide. Just don't go crazy with the stuff. About 50 "up and down pokes" with your finger around the whole surface should be fine. Just don't get any dried paste where you don't want it if you end up doing this.
Of course, this would mean more work removing the slides, re-synchs... :roll:
Check in with you later.

PS: I wasn't frustrated. I just thought you were changing your mind and it kind of threw me for a loop. Believe it or not, I've gotten some negative reactions from the wife about how much time I spend here. That factored into why I sounded unhappy about you maybe giving up on the re-jet. I didn't want all the time spent here to only result in her getting mad at me. I come home and check in with you if I can to see if you need help. She can't understand why I help "strangers". This isn't your fault mind you, I DO spend too much time here and it's just getting on her nerves a bit.
Enjoy the night out with the wife. I better do something for mine too!

 

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Skip, maybe I'm mixing you up.
Marks plug reads were at 1/3 throttle position or very close to.
At that point, you're on the jet needle with maybe a slight overlap effect from the pilot circuit. But you can say you're on the needle.
The main jet has no effect until the tapered jet needle rises at about 3/4 throttle.
At that point, the gap or passage between the jet needle and the needle jet becomes larger than the hole in the main jet. The main jet will now regulate the fuel flow because it is now the smallest passage along the entire circuit.
Installing larger mains in 2/3 carbs will do nothing unless you're at 3/4 throttle or more. Larger mains will have no effect at the throttle position Marks testing at.
I'm well aware of the need for the bike to run decent on the trip. Temporary fixes are not out of the question. But the larger mains won't help this situation. That's why I'm suggesting the latest adjustments. Nothing unusual, just a little attempt to richen 2/3. I'm hoping it helps enough.
Along with a few other thoughts, I'm hoping the intake valve clearances at 2/3 aren't too wide and not admitting fuel correctly. I suggested setting the clearances way back, but Mark assumed they were good, which they may be, but I have a procedure I do when re-jetting and a valve clearance check/adjustment is always done. I have go with what Mark wants to do at times. Correct clearances are very important to get an accurate carb synch/plug reads too. This gives you one less possible cause/problem if you end up trouble shooting instead of jetting.

 

[KEITH KRAUSE]

That said, back to business. Tonight, carbs come off.

Floats in 2 & 3 are getting set to .92 or at least just a tad higher.
I am going to test these levels with a clear tube as recommended in other threads.

Once that is right I am going out ? turn on the pilot screws for 2 & 3.

Recheck WOT setting screw. Back in the bike.

Recheck sync first!

Recheck air screws for max idle.

Plug test run.

Mark, I don't know if this will reach you in time, but I just want to clarify something about the float adjustment.
Above, you say "floats in 2 and 3 are getting set to .92 or at least just a tad higher".
In the inverted position, a higher float height measurement= lower fuel level and leaner mixture. A lower float height measurement=higher fuel level and richer mixture. Just want to be sure you have it straight. Measure first. If you did make a mistake earlier and they're higher than .94/.95, then set them to .94. If they are at .94, then set them to .92 and no higher.

 

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Hey Mark. Good morning.
I'm not sure what plans you have today. I have yard work to do and it will take me at least all day.
I'll take a break now and then to see if you need any help.
Sure hope the bike runs good.

 

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Just stopping by Mark. You got me a little concerned with your absence.
You were gonna go out with the wife and then try some adjustments.
Sure hope you're out enjoying life "away from carbs" or something.
If you got hurt doing high speed testing, I'd feel like crap.

 

[Hoomgar]

Just stopping by Mark. You got me a little concerned with your absence.
You were gonna go out with the wife and then try some adjustments.
Sure hope you're out enjoying life "away from carbs" or something.
If you got hurt doing high speed testing, I'd feel like crap.

You are a true friend indeed Keith. Thx for keeping up with me. Sorry for not checking in sooner. This is the first I have had a chance since Friday afternoon.

I haven't touched the floats. I simply don't have any more time now.

I did some tweaking of the pilots as you suggested. I took the pilot on 2 & 3 out 1/2 turn more and then readjusted all four carbs for max idle to make sure they are right. I rechecked the sync and it surprized me. I had it all even when I did it but now it was exactly where I would have moved them to if they were still even. 1 & 4 were right level with each other with 2 being about 1/4 to 1/2 higher. 3 was a good 3/4 higher and about 1/4 higher that 2. I left it at that and took it for a chop test.

The results? Much better I am leaving it like this for the ride.
The plug read was the best yet. None of them are alarming lean anymore. 2 & 3 are still lean compared to 1 & 4 but 1 & 4 seem perfect.

It is running really good now too. I am going to scoot with it this way and when I get back from the rally I will look more into it then. I want to open the top and check the valves and cams then too. I think the cams are walking from side to side a bit. I am used to that on my old bike and it would need new shims to fix it.

See you when I get back. Thx for all the help.

 

[Hoomgar]

Keith, yesterday I opened the valve cover and the intake cam valve gaps on 2 & 3 both needed adjustment. They were both too tight. 3 more so than 2. You could not slide a 1.5mm feeler under them.

After readjusting them all so that they are between 1.5 and 3.0 I buttoned it back up. The cam timing was good.

It ran so bad on the way home I thought I was going to foul out and break down. I had to keep hammering it to keep it running.

I got a set of DJ 122 mains from Joe and as time permits I am going back at this now.
I am thinking about trying them with the stock needles as money is tight. Do you think it will work?

The thing still smokes bad and is passing a lot of fuel as many who followed me can attest.

Just thought I would post this to wake this back up now.

 

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Hi Mark. Welcome back. I was hoping for better news.
First of all, you say you found 2/3 intakes too tight. HOWEVER, you say you adjusted them to between 1.5 and 3.0 mm. 8O The correct range of adjustment is no less than .03mm and no more than .08mm. Reset them ASAP.
As for the heavy exhaust, I wish I knew what was going on. When you left on the trip, you had two plugs reading tan and two plugs reading a bit leaner. How you can be passing fuel is strange. Now if it's ONLY during roll ons or wide open, then we can blame the main jets, we haven't really messed with the mains yet. But if it's passing fuel at normal cruising speeds/throttle positions and your MPG was still bad, it just doesn't figure.
What was your trip MPG? How was it ridden?

 

[Hoomgar]

Hi Mark. Welcome back. I was hoping for better news.
First of all, you say you found 2/3 intakes too tight. HOWEVER, you say you adjusted them to between 1.5 and 3.0 mm. 8O The correct range of adjustment is no less than .03mm and no more than .08mm. Reset them ASAP.
As for the heavy exhaust, I wish I knew what was going on. When you left on the trip, you had two plugs reading tan and two plugs reading a bit leaner. How you can be passing fuel is strange. Now if it's ONLY during roll ons or wide open, then we can blame the main jets, we haven't really messed with the mains yet. But if it's passing fuel at normal cruising speeds/throttle positions and your MPG was still bad, it just doesn't figure.
What was your trip MPG? How was it ridden?

Keith, I have no idea what I am talking about :lol:
The feelers I used were the ones Joe gave me and I am sure they
are right. They had a .0??? on the one and the other was the .08 you mention. It was 15 or 1.5 to 3 something. Terrible I know :roll:

They are right now. The best MPG stayed the same. 30 HW and 24 City.

It rode strong. I was able to keep up OK. It could be a lot better I know. But it ran strong for as bad as the setup is. But it smoked like a truck brake for the whole trip. The high altitude areas really brought it on.