Designing my own Rectifier/Regulator

[cberkeley]

Continuing the design and testing phase, can I assume:
1) That all the GS series bikes use a 3-phase "Y-connected" Permanent Magnet alternator?
2) And if above is true, all the GS series bikes use the same Rectifier/regulator?
3) And all GS series bikes have a problem with this device?
4) If not please let me know the variances.
I am trying to design a single, very robust and agile regulator, hopefully the last regulator you need put on the bike.
Cletus

 

[kent]

I am So far ahead of you guys.

 

[Billy Ricks]

I am So far ahead of you guys.

Where can I get me one of them?:shock:

 

[Nerobro]

Continuing the design and testing phase, can I assume:
1) That all the GS series bikes use a 3-phase "Y-connected" Permanent Magnet alternator?
2) And if above is true, all the GS series bikes use the same Rectifier/regulator?
3) And all GS series bikes have a problem with this device?
4) If not please let me know the variances.
I am trying to design a single, very robust and agile regulator, hopefully the last regulator you need put on the bike.
Cletus

1) Yes. they all use three phase y connected permanant magnet alternators.
2) No. The different size GS's got different size R/R's and have different capacity alternators. I think the biggest were on the GS1100's IIRC at 28 amps? I think the smallest were 14 amps.
3) Almost every GS has the problem. Suzuki chose low spec parts for all their bikes. For instance the R/R on my GS550 was half the size of the one that came on the CX500. (which is currently on the bike) The R/R's you see on bikes that don't have the R/R problems that our suzukis have are almost always twice the size of the equivalant GS model.
4) Make a r/r that can handle 30-40 amps and it will work for every GS model.

 

[ghwrenchit]

I am So far ahead of you guys.

Now we just need a little package tweaking.....:-D :-D :-D

Greg

 

[cberkeley]

I am So far ahead of you guys.

Hey!......... Now that's R O B U S T!!
Should mount easily under the seat too:-D

 

[tfb]

Well you're all talking about stuff that I only vaguely understand, but nevertheless I'm following with interest! As will anyone with a GS Suzuki.

Mike.

 

[J_C]

Yeah, definetely following this thread. As a question though... any estimate on what the costs are going to be? Like, if this ends up being more than a ricks or electrosport model would there be any advantages?

Just the business side of me acting up again :-D

 

[Nerobro]

Well... $17 for the rectifier... A run of boards would come to something like $5 a board. The other components are fairly cheap... so.. $40, on the outside for electronic components. The case is the question.......

Is that the right ballpark?

 

[dubpander]

You certainly have my attention!!

 

[Craiger]

As one that has a bike with this same inherent problem, I'd like to follow this thread. Seems like a really cool project.

 

[rkubik]

heat sink location

heat sink location

Riding around yesterday I saw an old Yamaha Maxim that had the R/R heat sink mounted not under the battery box as we have it, but on the frame below the right sidecover, where air can get to it. Looked kind of nice with the aluminum fins exposed like that, too.

I suppose there would be some issues with water dripping on it though, so coneections would need to be well shielded.

 

[ghwrenchit]

Cletus,

Does this project warrant a "Would You, Did You, Do you" need a rectifier for x-price kinda survey in the "Pole" Section?? Volume pricing on components / labor / case tooling will eventually dictate the price even in kit form correct??

ghwrenchit

 

[mixongw]

Suzuki didn't make them. Never have. Shidengen makes them. Suzuki just seems to order parts that are barely adequate.



How are you doing the voltage regulation? This doesn't seem like a good place to use a ziener diode as you want to have an adjustable output voltage. And are you using a packaged rectifier? or are you specing the diodes on your own?

The thing that would really rock my socks, (as I use honda r/r's..) is an ignitor unit. Those things are $150+ from suzuki.

So... with a little resarch on Digikey.. 3phase rectifier. 35 amps.. 36MT20-ND And oh.. a 15v ziener diode to dump excess voltage.. BZG03C15GOSCT-ND *grins* But I know jack about DC voltage regulation.

Just my $.02 worth...

You are correct in that Suzuki didn't make them but neither did Shindengen. The R/R's that I have seen come off of Suzukis are all made by Nippon Denso. Honda and some others did it right when they chose Shindengen units. I replaced mine with a Shindengen that came off of a Gold Wing. I paid $5.00 for it on ebay. That put a halt to my research in designing a new unit. There seems to always be plenty of the old bullit-proof Shindengens on ebay. Since replacing the unit I have added 110W worth of driving lights to the old gal. It never drops below 14.5V with everything lit. Do the math.

 

[Billy Ricks]

Just my $.02 worth...

You are correct in that Suzuki didn't make them but neither did Shindengen. The R/R's that I have seen come off of Suzukis are all made by Nippon Denso. Honda and some others did it right when they chose Shindengen units. I replaced mine with a Shindengen that came off of a Gold Wing. I paid $5.00 for it on ebay. That put a halt to my research in designing a new unit. There seems to always be plenty of the old bullit-proof Shindengens on ebay. Since replacing the unit I have added 110W worth of driving lights to the old gal. It never drops below 14.5V with everything lit. Do the math.

Same here, ND on an 1150 I tested the other day which is bad, and my bike has an ND.

 

[ghwrenchit]

The problem with retrofits is the question of are we cooking the battery? Having ample amp/wattage output for the toy's is great, but is the unit sensing the load and regulating it? If your producing ~X power and not using it regulated, the battery will absorb it.... to a certain extent, then bubbly out the vent tube I'm thinking.

ghwrenchit

 

[cberkeley]

The problem with retrofits is the question of are we cooking the battery? Having ample amp/wattage output for the toy's is great, but is the unit sensing the load and regulating it? If your producing ~X power and not using it regulated, the battery will absorb it.... to a certain extent, then bubbly out the vent tube I'm thinking.

ghwrenchit

I agree with you........ that's why my design will inherently be set to sense the voltage and establish the accepted norm for battery charge regulation 13.6V. Should your particular application requirement be slightly different (insufficient charge or overcharge) there is a user accessible adjustment (fine-tune) allowing one to slightly increase or decrease the charge rate.

 

[Boondocks]

I agree with you........ that's why my design will inherently be set to sense the voltage and establish the accepted norm for battery charge regulation 13.6V. Should your particular application requirement be slightly different (insufficient charge or overcharge) there is a user accessible adjustment (fine-tune) allowing one to slightly increase or decrease the charge rate.

Where is the 13.6V "accepted norm" coming from? From my readings on the subject, 13.6V would be on the extreme low end of charging voltage, and is basically a float voltage. Continuous charging at 13.6 volts would tend to stratify the electrolyte and undercharge the battery over time, causing sulphation and loss of battery capacity.

None of the R/R specifications for any motorcycle to my knowledge consider 13.6V an acceptable charging voltage. Usually, motorcycle R/Rs will be set for about 14.4 - 14.8V. There is more gassing and consequent water loss at this voltage, but less sulphation. Charging voltages are a compromise to balance side effects of over and undercharging. Overcharging will deplete the electrolyte and corrode the battery plates, eventually causing battery failure.

You're the electrical engineer, but I would set the initial charging voltage at 14.4V.

You may be interested in this scheme at Increasing Alternator Charge Voltage and Adding a Float Voltage to a Previousy Modifed Alternator
to adapt a charging system to emulate a "smart charger" by using the voltage drop across diodes to trick the voltage sensor into reading a lower voltage. A battery can be fully charged to 14.8 - 15.0V and then automatically switched back to the original "float" voltage of 13.6 - 13.8V by disabling the diode circuit. This example is done with an automotive field coil alternator. I don't know if it is adaptable to a PM alternator, but since you are designing a RR from scratch, it seems that this may work with a PM alternator as well. I think that it is a great idea to have a vehicle charging system behave like a 2 stage smart charger, when they are typically very dumb. What are your thoughts on this?

 

[Steve]

To answer a previous question (or two)...

Yes, I believe all GSs have PM 3-phase charging systems. However, there ARE some differences. Up to about '80 or '81, some were able to turn off the headlight, and, in the process, disabled one leg of the charging system.

Do they all use the same R/R? Sort of. It is the same basic design, but some might have higher current ratings than others, and there is the inevitable difference in the connectors.

Another thing you might want to address in your design...you have stated you might incorporate a bit of adjustability. Rather than that, just offer two basic models: one that is for flooded-cell batteries that will charge in the low- to mid-14 volt range, and another that charges at about 15 for sealed AGM batteries (frequently mis-labeled as 'gel-cell') that appreciate the higher voltage for a full charge.

Looking forward to the finished product as I have two GSs around here. Thanks for your efforts.

(do you need a beta tester?)


.

 

[Nerobro]

cberkley, is your intent to publish the plans? or sell a board and let us hunt down components? Or sell a parts kit?

Given I can snag an adequate rectifier, I'd be happy just to get a voltage regulation circut set to 14.5v. Electrolyte be damned, I want a full charge on that battery.

I do have a thought though. I haven't determiend the best way of doing it. Why not have a system to switch to a "float level" charge after a certian period of time. Say.. 5 minutes. That would keep the the battery charge voltage at 14.5 high in the city. And high in traffic. And during cruise, it would drop the voltage to a float level to preserve the battery.

If you ask me though... if MFG's haven't implemented it yet. It's probally not worth the effort.