Did I just blow my starter?

[ttorrey]

Background: Got my dad's 1981 GS850 which sat unused for a couple years. Replaced the battery and just reinstalled the carbs after following the carb clean procedure. I put fresh fuel in, with some B12 Chemtool, and started her up. It worked! After tuning the idle adjust knob on the carb she was able to idle fairly well. I had to leave the choke up, otherwise she would die. I didn't have enough time to take her for a drive and get her warmed up enough, so I turned the bike off after only a couple minutes of idling and went home happy.

Next day I went back to the bike to start it up and get it warmed. The engine would almost start but never turned over. I finally killed the battery after trying for a few minutes.

Today, I hooked up the battery charge posts and while I was at it I switched out the old, dirty spark plugs. After a couple hours of charging, I disconnected the jumpers and tried starting it. It tried to start but didn't turn over... And then, suddenly, nothing. All of a sudden the starter button does absolutely nothing. I charged the battery for another hour or so and tried again. Still nothing. Every other time, the starter button would start the process but the engine just wouldn't turn over. Now, suddenly, the starter button does nothing.

What happened? I'm not sure how the starting system works, but might I have blown something in between the starter button and starter? I checked the fuses and they are in tact.

Any help is appreciated, and speak slowly, I am a newbie.

Thanks
Thomas

 

[Steve]

#1 question ... how big was the charger? If you used a typical car charger, you might have simply fried the battery. Especially after charging for several hours.

#2 question ... did you check the electrolyte level in the battery? After a couple years of doing nothing, there might easily be some sediment in the bottom of the battery that is shorting it out internally. Even topping off the electrolyte will not help that. You will need a new battery. Heck, even if it had been running well for a couple of years, it's about time for a new battery.

#3 question ... are you remembering to pull the clutch handle? Seems that you probably pulled it before, because the starter worked, but maybe forgot this time?

#4 question ... you really want to trust the carbs with only fresh gas and some B12 after the bike has been sitting for a couple of years? It's one thing to fire it up to see how it's running, but you can pretty well bet that something in the carbs is bound to be plugged up, so a thorough dipping and renewal with new o-rings should be in order. I would really hate to be trying to merge into traffic when I found out that things weren't running quite as well as I had hoped.

Don't forget to check the valve clearance, too. That is one other critical area that is often neglected because it simply costs too much to have a dealer do it, so it was never done. Not hard to do yourself, as long as you know which end of a screwdriver to pound on.

Pop quiz: which end of a screwdriver do you pound on? :-k

.

 

[ttorrey]

Thanks for the reply. I might have been unclear in my original post so I'll reiterate.

When I got the bike this summer I bought a brand new battery, and last I checked the electrolyte levels were good. And then I took out the carb and did the full rebuild, cleaning every element. And when I put it all back together this past week, the bike started and idled. But I didnt have enough time to let it warm up, so I had to cut it off right after I started it.

Then, it wouldnt turn over and I drained the battery trying. So I have been recharging it with a battery charger that I bought when I bought the new battery. One moment the bike was trying to start (but wouldnt turn over), the next moment nothing happened at all.

I dont think it's the battery, because it's new and the dashboard lights all come on telling me that it's working properly. And it was providing power to the engine, it's just that the engine wouldn't turn over. If the battery was completely dead I feel like I would have heard it slowly drain as I tried starting it -- the repeated turning would have slowed until the starter button wouldn't do anything. But it didn't do that -- one try it chugged, the next try nothing happened. And like I said, the dashlights are still on.

 

[argonsagas]

There is not much in the circuit for the starter, but you should be aware that 25 year-old GSes are known for having poor electrical connectors and there are several places you may encounter this problem.



The first thing to check is the cable connections on the battery, and then the frame grounding.

Next look at the solenoid and be sure both larger wires are connected and firmly in place. Now check that the wire from the starter button is attached.

All OK and still nothing?

Put the bike in neutral.

After you have it in neutral, turn on the ignition and place a screwdriver blade across the two main terminals on the solenoid.

This will do two things. First it will bypass the internal switch/relay inside the solenoid and, second, the screwdriver will act as if closing a switch and complete the circuit, immediately enabling the starter to turn over.


IF it turns over, as seems most probable, then the concern is in the wiring system...somewhere...and you will need a circuit tester or, even better, a volt-ohmmeter (preferably a digital one) to check it out.

 

[SPARKSS]

I dont think it's the battery, because it's new and the dashboard lights all come on telling me that it's working properly. And it was providing power to the engine, it's just that the engine wouldn't turn over. If the battery was completely dead I feel like I would have heard it slowly drain as I tried starting it -- the repeated turning would have slowed until the starter button wouldn't do anything. But it didn't do that -- one try it chugged, the next try nothing happened. And like I said, the dashlights are still on.

Well your lack of electrical knowledge is somewhat offset by your good observations Steve has some good hints for you......I'll take a stab a little differently (but to the same result). You need to verify that you have good electrical power available AT THE STARTER SOLENOID......Ground an incandescent test light (an old automobile headlamp with a couple of leads on it is just fine) to the bikes frame and see if it'll light when touched to the solenoid terminal which is connected directly to the battery + terminal. If it lights, try cranking.....did it go out? If not, did you hear a click from the solenoid as you tried to crank? If not, move your test light to the small terminal on the solenoid and retry cranking......if it lights when the start button is pushed, the button and circuit is working (if not, troubleshoot that first). If it lights, you SHOULD hear the solenoid switch (actually a relay) click when you push the start button......Move your test light lead to the starter wire (heavy terminal with a lead to the starter) and retry cranking.....does it light? If not, clean the solenoid ground (retest) and/or replace the solenoid.

At this point you can try bridging the 2 heavy terminals of the starter solenoid and see whether the starter cranks the engine (use something heavy.....a large gauge wire etc). This will complete basic checks to isolate what works and doesn't in the starting motor circuit.

Clear as mud?

 

[Nessism]

Question on your terminology Thomas, when you say the engine "wouldnt turn over" do you mean the engine would not start or do you mean the starter will not spin the engine? My understanding of the termology is that the starter "turns the engine over". Starting the engine is just that, Starting.

So I think you are saying that the engine spins with the starter but it does not Start. Correct?

Not sure what's going on but maybe it's flooded or you fouled the plugs. Not sure. I'd check the spark though and make sure that's good before you move to the carbs again.

Good luck.

 

[Steve]

To add to argon's method, ...

Do you have a test light? Right now it can become your best friend. A meter is good, but a light is quicker.

Even though the fuses look good, put the test light on one end, then the other, to make sure current is actually getting through. I have seen fuses fail under the end cap, and they still looked good. It's also a good idea to check the fuse holder clips, not the fuse. There might be a layer of corrosion in the holder that prevents good contact with the fuse.

Down to the starter solenoid. Argon's suggestion about shorting across the large terminals is not bad, but here are a couple more. Use your test light. Connect the lead to the negative terminal on the battery or other good ground. Verify a good power connection on the battery side of the solenoid. Press the starter button. Do you hear the solenoid click at all? If so, touch the starter side of the solenoid, press the starter button, see if the test light comes on. That will show if the internal contacts are working. If everything is OK so far, remove the starter cover and check the post on the starter itself, not the wire. If that is OK, check the starter mounting bolts to make sure they are snug. Keeping them tight is what connects the starter to the engine and ensures a good electrical ground. If everything is still OK, make sure you have a good ground wire from the engine to the chassis and/or battery.

(As I post this, I see that a couple others have posted while I was typing, so some of this might be repeated. That's OK, it's good advice and bears repeating. )

.

 

[ttorrey]

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll give them a try this weekend hopefully.

To answer Nessism: not sure if I am using the correct terminology, but yesterday when I pressed the starter button I got your classic repeated engine whine --- like when it's cold outside and the car won't start. I kept trying to start the bike, playing with the throttle and choke, and ended up draining the battery after repeated failed attempts. (The day before, however, I did get the bike to start and idle). Today, I tried starting and got the same engine whine for the first few tries. But then, suddenly, as I said, I hit the starter button and silence.

I'll try the methods mentioned above and see what I can deduce. Any good schematics out there to help me locate all the mentioned parts? I've got the downloaded manual, but the pictures aren't always clear...

Thanks

 

[Steve]

The battery should be obvious, the solenoid is the next item down the large wire going from the battery's positive terminal.

Here is my wife's '82 850L before I got hold of it for some additions.
The solenoid is the larger round item with the square black block on top of it, with all the wires on the very top.
This is on the left side of the battery box.

Here is what it looks like now, after the additions:

 

[robertbarr]

You did carb work, and now it won't crank. Step 1 should be to check for hydraulic lock.

There's a reasonable chance you have a cylinder full of fuel. Pull the plugs and turn the engine over manually (with a ratchet / wrench on the end of the crank, under the ignition cover).

If you get a half pint of fuel pouring out of a spark plug hole, you've found your problem. If not, at least you know you're not inadvertently trying to bend a connecting rod.

 

[bmac]

Many possibilities

Many possibilities

Good call Bob, You might in fact be on to something also. Who knows, the petcock could be faulty, it could of been left in prime, He has to check the plugs and be sure to check his oil level. If you can't see the level line than the crank case is getting a gas bath. NOT GOOD! Many things to check when bringing these bikes back from a long sleep. We need to make a checklist for new members to observe to correctly identify potential problems that need to address before putting in gas and trying to go. bmac

 

[ttorrey]

Well I finally have gotten a free Saturday to troubleshoot my electrical problem.

Thanks so much for the tip about using a lightbulb to test connections. Using that method I was able to deduce that the problem was originating in the starter button unit itself. I took it apart and cleaned the contacts. That's all it needed! Now it will crank, like before, but there's not enough battery power to turn it over. So I hooked up the charger and hopefully at day's end there will be enough juice to turn the engine over. But at least it's cranking now.

I'll keep the thread updated.

 

[srsupertrap]

Background: Got my dad's 1981 GS850 which sat unused for a couple years. Replaced the battery and just reinstalled the carbs after following the carb clean procedure. I put fresh fuel in, with some B12 Chemtool, and started her up. It worked! After tuning the idle adjust knob on the carb she was able to idle fairly well. I had to leave the choke up, otherwise she would die. I didn't have enough time to take her for a drive and get her warmed up enough, so I turned the bike off after only a couple minutes of idling and went home happy.

What was the extent of your crab cleanup? If you disassembled all four carbs, dipped them in Berryman and then reassembled the rack of carbs per the carb cleanup procedure the symptom of having to adjust the idle higher coupled with keep the choke lever engaged suggests you may need to synchronize the rack of carbs. You also mentioned the 850 sounds like it wants to start despite cranking it over & over. This also suggests the carbs may need a bench synch to get it started and idling by itself.

Next day I went back to the bike to start it up and get it warmed. The engine would almost start but never turned over. I finally killed the battery after trying for a few minutes.

Our GS batteries won't crank long especially during the winter months as you have found. You may want to pull the car along side the bike and use the car battery & jumper cables to assist while cranking & T/S. Don't have the car running while the jumper cables are attached.

 

[first timer]

are you triying to start the bike with the filters off?

 

[ttorrey]

The extent of my carb clean was following the Cleanup Series PDF on the site (including buying new intake boots, o-rings).

We got the bike to turn over after the battery had been fully charged. It even idled nicely (around 1500 rpm) and, once warm, I was able to push the choke in. My dad rode it up the road, but it would stall when shifting.

Now, we can turn the engine over and have it idle, but whenever we give it throttle, she dies, like it's being flooded.

I'm pretty sure I need to adjust/tune the carbs (just my gut). But I'm not sure how to go about it. I'm adjusting the throttle knob on the carb, but nothing is really changing. Everything is put back into the bike. Do I have to take it out again?

Help, I'm a newbie! But, I'm proud of myself for getting this far...

 

[GQROD]

Have your battery load tested for free at any auto parts place or Wal-mart, this will tell you if the battery is still good.

If the bike is running look at the plugs.

Do plug chops then adjust your idle mixture ( idle mix screws on the carbs ). ( NOT the idle speed screw, you have already done that )

Could be your main jets are too small or too large. Which is why it's shutting off during shifting.

Hope this helps.

 

[rudy]

An easy way to check for lean is to get the bike up to a decent speed, then downshift and let the bike decelerate with the engine. If you hear popping like most "customized" Harleys, it's lean. If you have black smoke coming out the pipes, it's rich. Now, these are extremes, but it may help you if you don't have something like a Colortune spark plug, or have trouble reading a spark plug for doing plug chops.

 

[curseboy]

usually the simplest answer is the right one. The starter solenoid.