Ethenol in the gas

[Guest]

When I was filling up the car today I saw a warning sticker on the pump about using the gas with up to 10% Ethenol in vehicles from the mid 1980's and older. Anybody have any problems because of the ethenol? My idle has been a little high when warm on the GS and I wonder if that could be the cause.

 

[Clumzi]

I've been under the impression that pretty much everything has been E10 for a while. I know in most of the places I've lived it has been. I've got no answers but I'm curious too. I have heard it causes marginal drops in fuel efficiency, but that's all. nick

 

[bwringer]

If your GS is running right, it won't make one particle of difference. Pump the cheap stuff and ride happy.

 

[heathen]

most large cities now require e10. we have had it here for a long time. only differance is on carberated engines. some won't change, but i have had to lower the idle on my bike because the e10 will make it run a little lean. you shouldn't have to rejet though. your gas milage will be changed a little but probably won't notice may be a mile or two. i run my 66 fairlane on it and haven't seen any problems other than idle. haven't heard of anyone having problems with running it.

 

[physics-teacher]

Tipsy engines?

Tipsy engines?

There are stations in my area that post "NO ETHANOL" on their signs. My tests are not exhaustive, but I believe ethanol is costing me about 10% on my gas mileage. I drop from around 49 to 45 with the alcohol added. I would think this should happen.....ethanol has less energy per liter compared to gasoline. Ethanol stations in my area are usually the cheapest posted price. Pay less, get less seems to be my experience so far.

 

[doctorgonzo]

There are stations in my area that post "NO ETHANOL" on their signs. My tests are not exhaustive, but I believe ethanol is costing me about 10% on my gas mileage. I drop from around 49 to 45 with the alcohol added. I would think this should happen.....ethanol has less energy per liter compared to gasoline. Ethanol stations in my area are usually the cheapest posted price. Pay less, get less seems to be my experience so far.

That's what I think. The Farmer's Supply Store near me sells no ethanol. Get it when I can, when not convenient run e10.

 

[dardoonk]

A 10 percent ethanol-blended gasoline [E-10] contains only 97 percent of the energy of pure gasoline, this is partially compensated for by the improved combustion efficiency of the ethanol-gasoline blend that the added ethanol provides. Overall, use of E-10 increases fuel consumption by an average of 2 percent compared with pure gasoline. Probably not enough to notice any change in performance, but less is less.

Ethanol makes a great solvent for gaskets, fuel lines and O-rings that aren't designed for it. I don't know if mine are or not, but I'd rather it doesn't sit there and slowly eat them away. Ethanol blended fuel breaks down faster than pure gasoline as well. Due to it's tendency to absorb water (from the air, not just water already in the gas) blended fuel undergoes a phase change if let to sit too long. Result: your 87 octane gas ends up about 84 octane, which much less than ideal. Of course if you running a blended 92 octane, you end up with 88 octane and your still okay.

Personally, I avoid it where I can, especially on the bikes.

 

[lordcannon88]

A 10 percent ethanol-blended gasoline [E-10] contains only 97 percent of the energy of pure gasoline, this is partially compensated for by the improved combustion efficiency of the ethanol-gasoline blend that the added ethanol provides. Overall, use of E-10 increases fuel consumption by an average of 2 percent compared with pure gasoline. Probably not enough to notice any change in performance, but less is less.

Ethanol makes a great solvent for gaskets, fuel lines and O-rings that aren't designed for it. I don't know if mine are or not, but I'd rather it doesn't sit there and slowly eat them away. Ethanol blended fuel breaks down faster than pure gasoline as well. Due to it's tendency to absorb water (from the air, not just water already in the gas) blended fuel undergoes a phase change if let to sit too long. Result: your 87 octane gas ends up about 84 octane, which much less than ideal. Of course if you running a blended 92 octane, you end up with 88 octane and your still okay.

Personally, I avoid it where I can, especially on the bikes.

I am writing an essay currently on ethanol vs. pure gasoline. I will try to be brief. ethanol burns cleaner than gas but has less energy per unit, approx. 76000 BTUs. Gasoline has 126000 BTUs. Ethanol also has a higher surface tension than gas which, when mixed with gas, causes the mixture to not mix with air as efficiently as pure gas. this causes an inefficient mixture which causes an inefficient combustion which causes a decrease in gas mileage. I get about 5 mpg less with ethanol than gas. Now for the brave scientific minded there is something better you can add to gas: acetone. Acetone only has 93000 BTUs per gallon, but when mixed with gasoline in extremely small amounts (1.5 oz per 10 gallons in my car) it increases gas mileage 3 - 5 mpg. it does this by almost completely breaking the surface tension of gasoline and allowing it to emulsify more efficiently.

the jury is still out on the damage acetone does or doesnt do to cars, but in such small amounts i dont see how anything could be hurt. ive been using it 8 months with no result other than improved mileage. as a bonus it burns cleaner and cleaned out the dirty EGR system on my car and turned off the check engine light. lol

i have sources for this info if anyone wants them. it is late and I am tired. im not sure how coherant this is.

 

[albi]

Hi,

I've been using e10 for a while with no noticable difference in performance. The only side effect i've noticed is very slight decrease in fuel economy. This is more than compensated for by the slightly cheaper price (at least it's cheaper here in Queensland, Australia)

 

[Suzuki_Don]

My daughter used the E10 in her 2.6 litre Sigma with carb (not injected). Engine would not run. Stalled all the time. Even with idle speed turned up it ran extremely rough. Dissolved rubber parts in carburation system. It took two tank fulls of standard unleaded fuel to get the engine running OK again. Personally I would not use it in any vehicle with rubber components. Fuel injected vehicles OK, as they have all metal fuel lines, etc.

 

[Old Colt]

A bunch of these comments do not touch on the negative aspects of E10 in vehicles that are not driven routinely.
The big issues are with vehicles that sit most of the time and do not have evaporative emissions systems, the charcoal canister. This would include our bikes, boats, light aircraft, lawn mowers & tractors, generator sets etc.
A couple of points.
The Ethanol does not mix with the gasoline, it is blended at the distribution center as it goes into the truck hauling it to the gas station. If the fuel sits, the Ethanol settles out leaving a stratification of the high oxygen rich alcohol on the bottom of the tank and low octane gas above it.

The Ethanol has a very low vapor pressure and over a two week period will start to evaporate out of the tank. In a month or so it is gone into the atmosphere.

The Ethanol absorbs moisture very efficiently. Guess what happens over time, The moisture is left on the bottom of the tank is a very oxygen rich blend.

The Ethanol brakes down polyester resin used in the the manufacture of older gas tanks in boats and motorcycles.

So, when this wonderful fuel that is forced upon us sits for more than two weeks in a tank or can it settles out to an oxygen rich water laden jelly on the bottom and low grade gasoline above it. If it does not rot through your tank it will pass through the filters to the carb and settle its jelly there. And yes it passes right through all filters.

We have one gas station here that gets straight gas, I do see and measure a difference between it and E10. The E10 causes major driving problems in my older cars, I put in drygas every time ig go for a drive. That alone has its issues but the jelly formation in the carbs is a problem.

In Vermont we have not had E10 for very long but over the past year I myself now keep my fuel in 5 gallon cans and let the jelly form and settle out, then pour off the usable fuel for use in the mower, chainsaws etc.

 

[mike-s]

I've been using e10 for a while with no noticable difference in performance. The only side effect i've noticed is very slight decrease in fuel economy. This is more than compensated for by the slightly cheaper price (at least it's cheaper here in Queensland, Australia)

Before you can say that you really need to figure out a cost/benefit ratio for it. What i did when i was curious about the efficienct of premium vs standard unleaded in my 250 was work out the km/litre and also work out the cost per km as well as the cost difference over 100km. I worked out that it cost me 50 cents less ler tank to run an average tanks worth of fuel (though this is at 2004 prices though)

 

[NetBSD]

ill chime in on this, around my parts we have turkey hill (uses ethenol in the gas) and other stations that advertise they use no ethenol. well i did a simple little test of running a full tank of gas with ethenol in it and a full tank of regular gas without ethenol, the mileage was different by a little, my gs450L with 7k original miles got 30 more miles outof the tank of gas with no ethenol, ofcourse give or take a little bit for driving habbits but there is a drop in mileage but i have not noticed a performance gain or drop with my gs, now my truck (1988 Bronco II 2.9L EFI with a 5 speed and 103k on the clock) seems to dislike ethenol, hard to get it started up int he cold weather and it hesitates till its warmd up. only does this on ethenol, and i have no clue on the mileage but it gets terrible mileage anyway due to the bigger tires and a heavy right foot


thats all i can say about ethenol, i never got into the tech stuff with it

 

[Killer2600]

I am writing an essay currently on ethanol vs. pure gasoline. I will try to be brief. ethanol burns cleaner than gas but has less energy per unit, approx. 76000 BTUs. Gasoline has 126000 BTUs. Ethanol also has a higher surface tension than gas which, when mixed with gas, causes the mixture to not mix with air as efficiently as pure gas. this causes an inefficient mixture which causes an inefficient combustion which causes a decrease in gas mileage. I get about 5 mpg less with ethanol than gas. Now for the brave scientific minded there is something better you can add to gas: acetone. Acetone only has 93000 BTUs per gallon, but when mixed with gasoline in extremely small amounts (1.5 oz per 10 gallons in my car) it increases gas mileage 3 - 5 mpg. it does this by almost completely breaking the surface tension of gasoline and allowing it to emulsify more efficiently.

the jury is still out on the damage acetone does or doesnt do to cars, but in such small amounts i dont see how anything could be hurt. ive been using it 8 months with no result other than improved mileage. as a bonus it burns cleaner and cleaned out the dirty EGR system on my car and turned off the check engine light. lol

i have sources for this info if anyone wants them. it is late and I am tired. im not sure how coherant this is.

Good info but I think I'll leave the acetone to being in the acetylene of my oxy-acetylene torches as well as finger nail polish remover. The **** dissolves plastic, so it's not something I'm looking to have more of, especially in my engines.

 

[IOWA450T]

A bunch of these comments do not touch on the negative aspects of E10 in vehicles that are not driven routinely.
The big issues are with vehicles that sit most of the time and do not have evaporative emissions systems, the charcoal canister. This would include our bikes, boats, light aircraft, lawn mowers & tractors, generator sets etc.
A couple of points.
The Ethanol does not mix with the gasoline, it is blended at the distribution center as it goes into the truck hauling it to the gas station. If the fuel sits, the Ethanol settles out leaving a stratification of the high oxygen rich alcohol on the bottom of the tank and low octane gas above it.

The Ethanol has a very low vapor pressure and over a two week period will start to evaporate out of the tank. In a month or so it is gone into the atmosphere.

The Ethanol absorbs moisture very efficiently. Guess what happens over time, The moisture is left on the bottom of the tank is a very oxygen rich blend.

The Ethanol brakes down polyester resin used in the the manufacture of older gas tanks in boats and motorcycles.

So, when this wonderful fuel that is forced upon us sits for more than two weeks in a tank or can it settles out to an oxygen rich water laden jelly on the bottom and low grade gasoline above it. If it does not rot through your tank it will pass through the filters to the carb and settle its jelly there. And yes it passes right through all filters.

We have one gas station here that gets straight gas, I do see and measure a difference between it and E10. The E10 causes major driving problems in my older cars, I put in drygas every time ig go for a drive. That alone has its issues but the jelly formation in the carbs is a problem.

In Vermont we have not had E10 for very long but over the past year I myself now keep my fuel in 5 gallon cans and let the jelly form and settle out, then pour off the usable fuel for use in the mower, chainsaws etc.

I can only comment on my own experiences. We heard the same horror stories about ethanol 25 yrs ago when it first reared it's subsidized head here in IA. I can only say this: I have never had any kind of fuel related problem in any vehicle (includes everything from '62 Galaxy 500 convertible that sat all winter with E10 in it every year I owned it to 2005 Pontiac minivan), lawn mower, weed eater, snow blower, or (for the last 4 yrs) motorcycle (which also sits all winter with a full tank of E10). I don't know the science but I do know I have used ethanol blended fuel exclusively for over 20 yrs and every time I think I should switch to regular I run a tank or two of it thru my vehicles and never see any difference. Wish everyone could have the apparently harmless experience with it that I have had.

 

[Old Colt]

It may have quite a bit to do with local climate. All that I have mentioned I have experienced. The problems with fiberglass tanks is well documented in the marine industry.
People who have been flying with auto fuel have now needed to go back to using Avgas especially in low wing planes that require a fuel pump.

We just had an Ice storm that left many areas without power for 4+ days. The problems with generators not coming up to power was no laughing matter to those that needed them but found carbs full of crap.

Our local climate is getting wetter with greater temperature swings. This can create much more condensation in fuel tanks leading to the jelling issues.

The E10 is not a good fuel for this region. Luckily with a 20 mile drive I can get straight fuel without the ethanol.

 

[asetech]

E10 should not harm anything but e85 will screw stuff up I believe you need brass floats you would need to fatten up your mixture. We get non-flexfuel cars in the shop at times and vehicle will set lean codes as the injectors cant pulse width long enough.

 

[albi]

It may have quite a bit to do with local climate. All that I have mentioned I have experienced. The problems with fiberglass tanks is well documented in the marine industry.
People who have been flying with auto fuel have now needed to go back to using Avgas especially in low wing planes that require a fuel pump.

We just had an Ice storm that left many areas without power for 4+ days. The problems with generators not coming up to power was no laughing matter to those that needed them but found carbs full of crap.

Our local climate is getting wetter with greater temperature swings. This can create much more condensation in fuel tanks leading to the jelling issues.

The E10 is not a good fuel for this region. Luckily with a 20 mile drive I can get straight fuel without the ethanol.

I was shocked to read that people use ethanol mix in aircraft. Up here there are warning signs all over the e10 pumps warning that under no circumstances should it be used for aviation purposes.

 

[Guest]

Just a FYI, It's missouri law that we have to have 10% ethanol in the gas.

 

[heathen]

E10 should not harm anything but e85 will screw stuff up I believe you need brass floats you would need to fatten up your mixture. We get non-flexfuel cars in the shop at times and vehicle will set lean codes as the injectors cant pulse width long enough.

to run e85 you will have to increase fuel flow by at least 25%. we changed over to e85 on my son's dragcar last year. went from $8.50 a gallon 110 octane racing fuel to $3.50 at it's highest point e85. we buy it at the kroger right up the street. had to change from rubber floats to brass. also had to change meatering plates on the 850 holley and jet up 25%. car picked up .01 in the 1/8 mlie and .03 in the 1/4 mile. also ran cooler and cooled of a lot faster in the heat. a good thing when he runs 3 classes in one race.