How to avoid Starter Clutch Disaster Modification

[posplayr]

SrSupertrap

SrSupertrap

I think Option #2 is the best bet for the majority of GSer's with big bore motors and other high performance mods; it's fairly straight forward to implement with some careful soldering.

I agree, If I had nothing else to do, I might still pursue the autodelayed combo coil relay, but for now #2 is a good solution with plenty of flexibility. Glad it is working for you.

I have a unrelated tool question which you guys probably know being EE's & Tech's and such: Can I purchase a set of Terminal Pin Pushers to remove the electrical terminal connections from their respective GS terminal housings?

I have to do a minor (I hope) conversion (from GS1100EZ to GS1100ED) of the new harness I just bought. I dont know of any, have you checked Digikey or some other electronics supplier?
Let use know what you find out. I'm up to my ears in Por-15 at the moment.

I just looked at the harness. I was able to get the main pins out of seveal of the square connectors using a small screwdriver (like fixing glasses). The female pins really fill up the little connectors housing so you will need a thing a needle possibly to get thos out. More later

Por-playr (formerly Pospalyr)8-[

 

[Carter Turk]

The compression ratio is 10.25 to 1. The engine is a 1150 with MTC pistons and a Falicon SuperCrank in a 83 Kat frame.

I went for a ride and it seems to work, but still feels like the starter clutch in binding for a nano second.

 

[LarryT]

24 volts to the starter will stop this problem Busa guys do it all the time

 

[LarryT]

i did copied this on my dragbike worked great

 

[Spot1000Kat]

Easy mod to make high compression motors start easier

Easy mod to make high compression motors start easier

Hi Folks,
check out the last few posts on the Aussie kat forum topic below, I know a couple of dragbike racers who have done this small modification to the advance mechanism and it works great , retarded at start but still advances to where it should.

Basic description is :Take the cover off and move the advance mechanism by hand, mark where the swing weights hit and grind that bit out until you get more movement, you'll need to elongate the screw holes to permit greater retarding but still have full advance.


http://members.suzuki-katana.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=784

Cheers,

Spot.

 

[sschering]

Not to ask a dumb question but why not use the oil pressure switch to control the ignition..
Use a normally closed relay.. As soon as the oil pressure comes up the ignition will turn on.

downside.. if you loose oil pressure the ignition cuts out.. (maybe not a bad thing)

You could using a latching circuit so it won't cut out after the initial startup till the power is cut and the circuit resets.

 

[tkent02]

Not to ask a dumb question but why not use the oil pressure switch to control the ignition..
Use a normally closed relay.. As soon as the oil pressure comes up the ignition will turn on.

downside.. if you loose oil pressure the ignition cuts out.. (maybe not a bad thing)

You could using a latching circuit so it won't cut out after the initial startup till the power is cut and the circuit resets.

You could make it as complicated as you want, the kill switch mod is easy, simple, and reliable.

 

[sschering]

I have to do a minor (I hope) conversion (from GS1100EZ to GS1100ED) of the new harness I just bought. I dont know of any, have you checked Digikey or some other electronics supplier?
Let use know what you find out. I'm up to my ears in Por-15 at the moment.

I just looked at the harness. I was able to get the main pins out of seveal of the square connectors using a small screwdriver (like fixing glasses). The female pins really fill up the little connectors housing so you will need a thing a needle possibly to get thos out. More later

Por-playr (formerly Pospalyr)8-[

Vintage Connections sells a Terminal Extraction Tool

Item ETL Extraction Tool $15
http://www.vintageconnections.com/


I agree the thumb switch mod is quick and easy.. If you want a an automatic system the oil pressure is a easy way to get a built in delay without a complicated circuit.

A few people I used to race with setup their cars that way so a loss of oil pressure would kill the ignition..

 

[Texasgs]

re

re

There is an easy electronic low buck way to retard the timing at start up, and eliminate kickback from ignition timing. Years ago I was doing some wiring for a Kaw drag bike. The owner was wanting to retard the timing for starting. What I did was to install a pair of 4 pin GM factory HEI ignition modules to drive the coils. These modules were designed to go 6,000 RPMS on a V8, and will go even higher. And that is with 4 pulses per crank revolution. On a bike they will only see 1 pulse per crank revolution, so they will be good for 24,000 rpms. Any way you feed the input from the pickup coils into the W+ & G- terminals of the module, This hookup is polarity sensitive, but it will run if it is reversed. It will just run like crap, and it wont hurt the modules. Just reverse the polarity if it runs bad. The C terminal triggers the negative side of the coil, and the B terminal is the ignition hot wire you power up to turn the ignition on. These modules are HOT, and will fire off an awesome spark. To make this work there is a trick. You have to use a 4 pin HEI module with the white dot on it. The white dot modules have a built in electronic start retard of 10 degrees. You get the start retard for 3 seconds after start. The modules need to be mounted to a metal surface where the back can sink heat into the mounting area or they will get to hot, and you need some of that thermal heat sink compound on them. This is low buck at its finest.

 

[posplayr]

Vintage Connections sells a Terminal Extraction Tool

Item ETL Extraction Tool $15
http://www.vintageconnections.com/


I agree the thumb switch mod is quick and easy.. If you want a an automatic system the oil pressure is a easy way to get a built in delay without a complicated circuit.

A few people I used to race with setup their cars that way so a loss of oil pressure would kill the ignition..

I lost track of this thread and have just seen the idea to use the oil pressure switch. That is a petty good idea if it works for the kickback. Is there a prefered method to use the NC oil switch? At least one way is to use and extra relay. I have not figured out a way to just modify the standard coil relay mod yet without adding the extra relay.

 

[rapidray]

I love the way you "engineers" like to re-invent the wheel. This all started out as a SIMPLE way to reduce or eliminate starter kick back & starter clutch damage. All you need to do is wire the starter button so it is live all the time. Push the button, get the motor spinning, & turn on the key. How much more difficult does it need to be?! Make sure the bike is in neutral & you are good to go with this procedure. Lets add MORE electrical CRAP to a GS1100 that already has a 30 year old wiring system & components! You guys need to go work for LUCAS in England! Ray.

 

[posplayr]

U

I love the way you "engineers" like to re-invent the wheel. This all started out as a SIMPLE way to reduce or eliminate starter kick back & starter clutch damage. All you need to do is wire the starter button so it is live all the time. Push the button, get the motor spinning, & turn on the key. How much more difficult does it need to be?! Make sure the bike is in neutral & you are good to go with this procedure. Lets add MORE electrical CRAP to a GS1100 that already has a 30 year old wiring system & components! You guys need to go work for LUCAS in England! Ray.

Ray you are acting like yu are over 50 !!

 

[rapidray]

I ALMOST am!!! LOL!! How you doin Jim? Ray.

 

[tfb]

OK Gentlemen,

I've been reading this thread with *much* interest, as every GS I've ever owned (3 of them so far) has had this "kick back" problem.

What I want to know is, does the suggested modification in fact eliminate the problem?!

I have taken the time to carefully examine all the old starter clutches in my possession. They all exhibit high/low regions on the hub of the starter clutch, presumably caused by the extreme pressure of the rollers.

To my mind, it is this soft hub, with the developing high/low spots, that leads to the rollers 'skipping' and the starter clutch letting out that awful CLANG and what you guys are calling "kick back".

Or, does having a setup such as the illustration on LarryT's post (#44) with a timing retardation lever cure the problem?

Guys, this problem with our GS's is perhaps the greatest design weakness of these legendary machines! Please help me eliminate it from my life!

Cheers,
Mike.

 

[Matchless]

OK Gentlemen,

I've been reading this thread with *much* interest, as every GS I've ever owned (3 of them so far) has had this "kick back" problem.

What I want to know is, does the suggested modification in fact eliminate the problem?!

I have taken the time to carefully examine all the old starter clutches in my possession. They all exhibit high/low regions on the hub of the starter clutch, presumably caused by the extreme pressure of the rollers.

To my mind, it is this soft hub, with the developing high/low spots, that leads to the rollers 'skipping' and the starter clutch letting out that awful CLANG and what you guys are calling "kick back".

Or, does having a setup such as the illustration on LarryT's post (#44) with a timing retardation lever cure the problem?

Guys, this problem with our GS's is perhaps the greatest design weakness of these legendary machines! Please help me eliminate it from my life!

Cheers,
Mike.

If you removed the soft sheet metal shroud around the starter clutch you will find a small locator pin for the spring with an oil hole through it held in place.
It can only come out towards the outside. This pin is not perpendicular to the shroud holding it in place. One of the sharp edges pushes against this thin sheet metal shroud and eventually punches a hole through the sheet metal, pops out the back and the pin, spring and roller guide shoots out of the hole and lands up inside your stator stuck to the magnets and chews up anything there.

You can repair a starter clutch that has failed in this way if you are in trouble, as long as it does not show other signs of wear.

 

[tfb]

G'day Matchless,

Yes, this very thing happened with the starter clutch of my last GS1000S, with the spring and pin exiting through the sheet metal casing, as you describe.

The question is, what causes the pin and spring to be fired with such incredible force that they can, with time, punch their way through the metal casing?

There is clearly some sort of "kick back" going on, but what causes this is not clear to me. For some years I've been staring at the hub of the main starter gear, and noticing how the softer metal is actually being mis-shapen by pressure from the rollers. To my mind, this is enough to explain the situation, in that the rollers could simply be 'skipping' around the hub until they can lodge in a low spot, and then engage and turn the crankshaft, etc.

However, the assumption of this lengthy thread is that it is an ignition timing issue upon startup; hence the suggested solution is to supress the spark until the motor is spinning much more quickly.

This thesis intrigues me! Even if it is not the main cause, it may still help the situation of these wretchedly-designed starter clutches, and I am interested in whether people on this forum have *actually found* it helps mitigate the problem.

So, can anyone out there vouch for this? Having made the switchgear mod., for example, can anyone say that it has reduced or even eliminated the "kick back" problem and that frighteningly awful WHACK/CLANG so many of us have to put up with?

Cheers,
Mike.

 

[posplayr]

G'day Matchless,

Yes, this very thing happened with the starter clutch of my last GS1000S, with the spring and pin exiting through the sheet metal casing, as you describe.

The question is, what causes the pin and spring to be fired with such incredible force that they can, with time, punch their way through the metal casing?

There is clearly some sort of "kick back" going on, but what causes this is not clear to me. For some years I've been staring at the hub of the main starter gear, and noticing how the softer metal is actually being mis-shapen by pressure from the rollers. To my mind, this is enough to explain the situation, in that the rollers could simply be 'skipping' around the hub until they can lodge in a low spot, and then engage and turn the crankshaft, etc.

However, the assumption of this lengthy thread is that it is an ignition timing issue upon startup; hence the suggested solution is to supress the spark until the motor is spinning much more quickly.

This thesis intrigues me! Even if it is not the main cause, it may still help the situation of these wretchedly-designed starter clutches, and I am interested in whether people on this forum have *actually found* it helps mitigate the problem.

So, can anyone out there vouch for this? Having made the switchgear mod., for example, can anyone say that it has reduced or even eliminated the "kick back" problem and that frighteningly awful WHACK/CLANG so many of us have to put up with?

Cheers,
Mike.

The kick back is the engine kicking back and literally reversing the motor direction. You solve the problem by doing one of the following:

1.) make sure that the engine is spinning fast enough that the first light can't reverse the engine's spinning inertia (i.e no reversal)

2.) retard the timing so the timing is closer to TDC and it is already past TDC by the time the spark has hit and pushes down on the piston; Rotation keeps going down without reversing the engine rotation.

Note when the engine reverses the starter clutch takes it in the teeth.

 

[tfb]

G'day gentlemen,

Well, after putting up with the starter getting kicked in the teeth most times I went to start the bike, I decided I would implement LarryT's solution of a lever to manually retard the timing for startup (see post #44 in this thread).

It was easy enough to do, and the bike starts brilliantly with none of that kicking back happening... so far, anyway.

I had to take care to cut the stepped slot in the ignition cover, so that the lever is located in the spot-on position for when the engine is running.

But apart from that, a straight-forward operation. If it has succeeded in fixing the problem, I'll be a very happy man. If not... well, I'll be looking around for a new ignition cover.

Next step might be to shorten the lever... it's a bit on the grand side at the moment, I think. ;-)

Cheers,
Mike.

 

[posplayr]

G'day gentlemen,

Cheers,
Mike.

So I'm guessing the plate screws are now spring loaded and there is enough friction all around the back of the plate to keep it from rotating from vibration. I also see there is a step in the cover to lock in the normal advance position (good idea).

A racer would probably have a Dyna 2000 at least which I think has an advance kill, so this must be a real old school mod.

At least for my 1166, I find that keeping the battery charged up significantly reduces the kick back. When the battery is low it is much more prevelant.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showpost.php?p=1148495&postcount=44


Thanks for sharing.

 

[tfb]

Yep, there's plenty of friction around the backplate. At the moment I have used spring washers (and the screws held in place with blue Loctite) to provide enough tension. But soon I will replace the screws with longer items and better springs as well.

And, an "old school mod" indeed... for my next modification to the old bike, I'm thinking of a tank-mounted gear stick...