How to avoid Starter Clutch Disaster Modification

[posplayr]

EDIT: You can read all the gory details or just look here for how to modify the starter switch for Option #2. This is really the easiest way to control your ignition separately from the starter.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showpost.php?p=807063&postcount=16

ORIGINAL POST Continued:

I had a request for more information on this modification. I have never done it but plan on doing it for my GS1100ED. I did confer with RapidRay as he originally told me about this modification. His preferred method is the first option. My initial guess at how he did it is the second option which I think would also work. Any comments welcome.

4/8/2015: I have eliminated Options #3 and #4 and added an Option #5

Modified 4/26/08 to make things more automatic using Option #3 a modified coil relay mod.
Modified 4/27/08 to make things more automatic using Option #4 a modified coil relay mod (now the front runner solution;parts on order).

http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/7535897/rapid-rays-starter-button-mod-revd-pdf-458k?da=y
***********************************************************************
Edited 4/27/08 SUMMARY:
Option #1 OK I have tried documented my best understanding of RapidRay's starter button anti kick back modification.
That is Option #1 and I'm sure it works. I think the wiring modification needs to be done somewhere in the harness and probably in the headlight bucket because you need access to the hot lead going to the ignition key (before it). The main problem I see with this #1 option is someone (perhaps a small kid) can crank your bike even if your ignition key were off.

Option #2 : I showed near the end of this thread an alternate implementation of option #2 that is entirely contained within the right hand switch. This option retains all of the stock operation with the exception that now you can crank the engine with the kill switch off but both still require the ignition key to be on.

ELIMINATED: While Option #3 did work most of the time provided I cranked long enough (at least two revs), in playing with option #2 I ca n achieve smoother startup and less starter noise by properly controlling the kill switch than I ever could with option #3. Basically there are several times when the engine is being asked to coast into the compression stroke (when starter button comes off) and it slows the engine to the point it seems to not start and almost kick back. Bottom like the starter needs to be driving the engine forward in this instance otherwise there is a high probability of kick back.

ELIMINATED: Unofficially Option #4 I'm still considering Matchless's idea of a delay on relay if I can find one at a reasonable price. I'm figuring a 1 second (approx) "make delay relay", this might provide a good compromise/protection as this precludes the ignition from coming on before before the 1 sec. Otherwise it acts exactly as stock. This could be combined used to replace a single relay coil modification or other combination contemplated. I might still try this. This would make startup dummy proof plus provide the full voltage to the coils.

Interim Conclusion:
If #4 works there is nothing wrong with having #2 and #4 in place but then #2 is probably not necessary. If someone can do #2 (re solder) they probably are contemplating #4 as well. The primary reason to do #2 over #4 is cost; #2 doesn't cost anything but time and a small piece of wire. #4 will give automatic anti kickback and enhanced ignition voltage in one modification.

*************************************************************************
•This modification and associated engine start procedure is recommended for any motorcycle, but especially for any high compression engines.

•The typical stock ignition/starting system is wired in series so that ignition key, kill switch, starter button all need to be activated to get the starter to move.

•A race condition exists then between the starter motor turning the engine over fast enough to avoid the ignition firing , and engine compression of the engine, kicking back the motor and damaging the starter clutch.

•This modification allows ignition coils and starter to be controlled separately , so the engine can attain sufficient speed from cranking that the compression can NOT kick back the engine on startup. This should help avoid most starter clutch damage.

•Two options are provided depending on how you want your switches to work.

Note: Adobe PDF reader is required to look at the link. Let me know if this causes difficulties; this is a pretty common media for file sharing.

http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html


•Write up Posplayr 4/25/08
UPDATED 4/8/2015 to reflect new Option #5

 

[Matchless]

posplayr,
I was looking at this and thinking that if one could use or design a small delay circuit for the relay used for the coil modification, then this could cut out any special way of starting.
When the ignition is on, the relay operates and powers the coils.
When the starter button is pressed and starter spins, a timer is started that releases the relay immediately for say 1/2 to 1 second and then operates, so no firing can take place during the first couple of spins.
What do you think?

 

[posplayr]

Matchless

Matchless

You are reading my mind.:-D I'm sure the configuration as described works as this is what RapidRay has been doing for years and so the fundamental principle to avoid ignition coil activation during cranking is key. Having said that the human factors of the "switchology" might leave something to be desired on anything but the drag bike.

I was considering the delay circuit as well as a means of "automating" the concept, but think I have arrived at a simple alternative that is already close to the coil relay modification and requires no special circuitry (you know it is hard for me to consider designs without solid state electronics/ microprocessors ).

I'm thinking of two coils in a similar configuration to the way that the head lights are blanked during starter cranking. The ignition could be blanked during starter cranking as well or similarly.

I have a pair of relays and it would be worth doing to my GS750 this weekend. One of the details, is to avoid having to hack up the harness to much, and i think that this will work out well with the relay package mounted near the coils, with only two additional wires run.

1.) from the starter solenoid to the coils relay
and
2.) the other the +Batt from battery to the coil relays.

The rest of the wiring is at the relay pair itself. I was just about to look coil relay mod to see how close it is or how easy it would be to modify for this starter clutch mod.

Posplayr

P.S. I woke up from Falling asleep on the couch watching TV, need to get to bed now so I'm not toast in the morning.
P.S.2 I just realized it was you who was doing the coil relay modification schmatics.. I'm a little bleary eyed at the moment
P.S.3 More bleary eyed but check this out...
http://www.posplayr.100megsfree3.com/GS1100E/Rapid%20Rays%20Starter%20Button%20Mod_RevA.pdf

 

[Matchless]

I'm sure the configuration as described works as this is what RapidRay has been doing for years and so the fundamental principle to avoid ignition coil activation during cranking is key.

I wonder if keeping the spark off for the full duration while the starter is powered and turning is what they are doing? Or are they giving spark for a period while the starter is still powered and turning?
Just wondering as it seems to me that it may cause hard starting issues if the motor does not fire immediately as the starter stops turning.

 

[posplayr]

Matchless

Matchless

The way RapidRay described it's operation for the first described option is as follows.

1.) Cutoff switch is always on and the key is off
2.) Crank the engine by pushing the starter button (engine starts to crank)
3.) Wait for engine to attain proper cranking speed.
4.) Turn the ignition switch
5.) Release starter (exactly how much after is not clear)

Step 5 could be held for a significant amount of time if the engine doesn't start. With Option #1 or #2 you can independently control both (cranking and coil ignition). Automatic coordination will require some type of timing or pure logic to relay on the engine inertia.

If you were to find that the engine would not start, you could push start or simply remove the Green/Yellow from the first coil solenoid and the blanking would be disabled.

Somebody needs to try it and see how well it works.

Posplayr

 

[Matchless]

OK as I then understand it, he gets the motor turning over up to starter speed than applies the ignition spark.
This means he is just avoiding backfires if the fuel fires as the engine starts to turn over? So one just needs the ignition to stay off for a second or so until the engine is spinning at full starter speed, but then it stays on as long as the starter is running and thereafter obviously.
Mmmm.. makes one think!

 

[Matchless]

Here is a delay module from Airotronics from the TBC range
It has a N/O contact, 1A rated and works on 12V DC, make delay can be set easily from .1 sec to 10 sec. Maybe something like this can be used in conjunction with the coil relay, its very small. I will not be able to look at this approach as finding something like this out here is just about impossible.

 

[Matchless]

Here is the schematic

 

[srsupertrap]

Since the request came from me I figured I would share the symptom which appears to be more prevelant than I thought. My GS1000 starting exhibiting the kick back starter clutch Whaack !! after I installed the following 1) Wiseco 1085 10.25:1, coupled with 2) set of mild Andrews S1 cams 3) 4 into 1 and became systemic when I installed 4) Mikuni VM29 S/Bore Carbs w K&N's.

When cranking over the GS1000 a couple of times when cold with headlight off it kicks/spits back and makes an ear splitting starter clutch noise from the left side. Funny thing, after kicking back it always starts right up? I had no one to consult back then so don't laugh but after Trouble Shooting the Charging System & Starter and coming up blank I replaced the 14 Amp battery and fabricated a new battery plate and installed a 16 Amp Harley battery to mitigate the symptom . Bigger is better right? Been running that set up since the 1980's but it still does the kick back on occassionally when cold. I don't think believe the Starter Clutch has been damaged because it doesn't make any odd noise when running, riding etc.

The best way to describe the proposed modification comes from Rapidray "We want to get the engine cranking first & fast enough without it fighting against the ignition firing"

I had a request for more information on this modification. I have never done it but plan on doing it for my GS1100ED. I did confer with RapidRay as he originally told me about this modification. His preferred method is the first option. My initial guess at how he did it is the second option which I think would also work. Any comments welcome.
.

 

[Matchless]

Hi srsupertrap,

Thanks for that information. I am familiar with the damage that is finally caused by this kickback. The starter clutch has 3 angled journals with a roller, spring and backstop pin inside them. Then a sheet metal shroud is pressed around the outside and that supposedly keeps these items from popping out. As the journals are at an angle the back part of the backstop is tight against the sheet metal shroud, but not square on. I am sure this is a design fault. This has the sharp edge of the backstop pin pushing against the sheet metal. After a while it punches a nice round bit out that hinges on the side where the backstop pin did not touch it. Sometimes the backstop pin and springs pop out and land inside the rotor damaging the stator coils and even cracking the magnets as they get mangled.
The starter then still works, but seems to slip at times which indicates that the rollers are not there or not gripping the crank properly.
I think this damage is more likely to happen on a well used starter clutch.

Another problem is that the starter clutch bolts can sheer off completely and have it slipping on the back of the rotor. I think incorrect torque of the 3 bolts or the rotor nut, reuse of old bolts or incorrect bolts are part of the reason, but the kickback would most probably play quite a role in this sort of damage.
You can lose the starter clutch, rotor, bolts and stator and even scar the crank if this happens.
That said then it seems as if such a mod that prevents kickback and diminishes damage to the starter clutch will be a cheap solution.

Do you or anyone know if following RapidRays method of starting stops the kickback altogether? If so then looking into a simple mod that can automatically delay spark until the engine is spinning properly may be a worthwhile experiment.

 

[srsupertrap]

Re:

Re:

Hi Matchless,

No I don't but if it works it's certainly an elegant solution. I going to contact RapidRay but it sounds like the switch rewiring bypass is done in the headlight shell. I am hoping some of the other monster motor guys will chime in about the effectiveness. These damn Suzuki electrical sytems were nominal at best. Modify the motor slightly or add any electrical load and you have problems.

I am pulling the stator cover after signing off to replace the OEM stator. I will have to inspect what I can see of the starter clutch components.

Hi srsupertrap,

Do you or anyone know if following RapidRays method of starting stops the kickback altogether? If so then looking into a simple mod that can automatically delay spark until the engine is spinning properly may be a worthwhile experiment.

 

[posplayr]

Kick Back

Kick Back

Do you or anyone know if following RapidRays method of starting stops the kickback altogether? If so then looking into a simple mod that can automatically delay spark until the engine is spinning properly may be a worthwhile experiment.

Rapidray's original question to me was "Do you want to never have starter clutch problems again?" . He then explained his starter button modification to me.

In my mind, the primary issue with starter clutch failure is kickback which Ray has identified and found a workable solution (for him) using option #1 to avoid kickback. But as with anything, there are different ways to fix it (some better some worse). So as long as you get the motor spinning fast enough(so that the compression) can't kick back the motor you can essentially eliminate premature starter clutch failure. I think this is a given. The rest is implementation details.

Posplayr

 

[Matchless]

OK, I think I am going to look at this sometime. At the moment it is not too high on my agenda, but maybe some others will still confirm actual experience or ideas. Multiple relays are out as the GS hardly has space for an extra fuse or two.
Apologies for hijacking your initial post as to overcoming the problem.O But thanks for the heads up on reducing the kick back.

 

[posplayr]

Preliminary Results for Options 3

Preliminary Results for Options 3

Well it works ; sorta; Well it is mixed results. With my engine warm, The engine is moving fast enough to continue and start with the ignition only coming on after the starter is deactivated. It doesn't start all the time unless I turn it over at least twice. Sometimes it doesn't start and I'm not sure what it does with all that cranking and no ignition.

I just patched this together and did a little video. I'm not sure I like it and i still seem to get come kick back if the motor doesn't start. No loud noise but that zinging sound you hear often.

I'm now looking for a simple delay relay that doesn't cost $200. Fall back is either option #1 or #2

Posplayr

 

[Guest]

Are there any features about the Dyna 2000 ignition that would help to reduce this problem?

I've had mine kick back every now and then. With my bike if I pull the choke out all the way it will usally start immeadiately. If for some reason it's slow to catch and I hold the starter for more than like five seconds then it could kick back, again very rarely. Now days, if it doesn't catch right away I let off the starter and try again for short 3 to 4 second bursts and it will usually catch without kick back.

Could one of the four retard modes on my Dyna reduces the chances? I have yosh 1134 pistons / stage I cams and header with RS38's.


DYNA 2000 FEATURES (from ad):

FULLY STATIC TIME-ABLE- You can set the timing accurately to the desired value without having the engine running.

INDEPENDENT 1/4 2/3 CYLINDER TIMING- The Dyna dual sensor crank trigger uses one sensor for cylinders 1 & 4 and the other cylinder for 2 & 3 allowing you to accurately set the timing for each cylinder pair.

BUILT-IN STATIC TIMING LIGHT- An LED light built into the Dyna 2000 ignition module allows you to monitor the crank trigger signal status and easily set the ignition timing.

FIVE DIFFERENT ADVANCE CURVES- You can advance slowly to dial out pinging on high compression motors or bring the advance in quickly on quick revving motors or select a curve in between to maximize the performance of your combination.

FOUR DIFFERENT RETARD MODES- The Dyna 2000 is an ideal solution for turbo or nitrous combinations.

TEST MODE- System check out and troubleshooting is a breeze with this feature.

SAFETY INTERLOCK INPUT- You can keep your side stand safety switch functional or hook up a theft prevention switch, or activate a shift lever kill for road racing.

BROAD RANGE REV LIMITER- The Dyna 2000 rev limiter is adjustable from 8500 to 16,000 rpm to let you run in any range you want.

DIGITAL TACH OUTPUT- Your tachometer will run smooth and accurate, even at the rev limit.

HIGH ENERGY- An innovative dwell control scheme maximizes spark energy all the way to 16,000 rpm! The Dyna 2000 can be used with 2.2 ohm or 3 ohm coils.

EASY MOUNTING- The Dyna 2000 ignition module has built in frame saddles to make mounting anywhere a breeze.

COMPLETE WIRING HARNESS- The Dyna 2000 kit includes a complete wiring harness to simplify installation.

LOW COST!- The Dyna 2000 system in most cases costs less than a stock ignition box.

*Suppression wires must be used with Dyna 2000

 

[posplayr]

Option #2 Implementation

Option #2 Implementation

OK I implemented Option #2 because it is the easiest for me to do and I don't have to rewire the harness and I got a chance to clean the starter button and kill switch as well.

Step one: remove the right hand control switch, disassemble it and pull out the mini-harness between the kill switch and the push button. Shown here is the stock guts of my 81GS750EX right hand switch.

Step #2 after identifying what is what, you heat the solder on the two wires that are attached to the button next to the yellow green wire. You will recognize this yellow/Green wire as the one that goes to the starter solenoid. If you study the wiring you will also realize that there is a solid orange wire (from the harness). This wire is basically the direct battery voltage but through the ignition switch.

The kill switch switches this voltage and then powers the starter button. We are removing this switched power from the starter button to power the button from the solid orange wire. You might notice that the two orange/white wires attached to the button are actually just one wire with the insulation stripped. You will have to cover this with some electrical tape or cut the wire to slide a piece of shrink tubing over it and re solder.

OK step three and the final step is to now power the starter button directly from the solid orange wire coming from the ignition. I used a blue wire so it was obvious what I did. Note i also added electrical tape to the bare piece of wire. One end is sistered up onto the solid orange side of the kill switch. The other side goes to where the two wires (orange/White) was connected.

Final result after reassembly is that you have all of the exactly same stock functionality except with the key on, you can crank the starter without energizing the coils. (by having the kill switch off). You can also do as normal, turn on the ignition, turn on the kill switch and the bike will crank as normal.

If you want to take the precaution to avoid kick back, then

a.) Ignition Key on
b.) Kill switch off
c.) Crank with the starter button
d.) after two or three revolutions switch on the kill switch.

This is basically an implementation of option #2 but unlike option #1 only requires wiring changes in the switch and not anywhere in the harness. Also stock functionality is retained and the engine can not be cranked with the key off, but the kill switch can be controlled to only energizer the coils when wanted and independent of starter activation.

For option #3 I was was trying to automate the process using a variation of the coil relay mod, even though there are more sophisticated methods. The delay make on relay could work, I have found some that are between $20-$35 in electronics surplus stores. After playing with this it seems like having an operator to do it is better as we can adjust the timing to what is going on rather than relying on a one delay fits all situations.

I'm going to use this mod on my GS750 for a while to see how it works and will report back.

Posplayr

P.S To clean the contacts i used some Jasco Metal etch and a Q-tip, then Q-tiped with water , air dryed and added dialetric grease to the switch and the button contacts.

 

[posplayr]

isleoman

isleoman

SAFETY INTERLOCK INPUT- You can keep your side stand safety switch functional or hook up a theft prevention switch, or activate a shift lever kill for road racing.

You could use your kickstand safety interlock to disable the Dyna 2000 ignition/coils and then kick up the stand as soon as you are ready to go and the bike will hit and off you go :-s.


Sorry small joke. I think I would try option #2 as i described instead

Posplayr

 

[srsupertrap]

Re: Posplayr Implementation

Re: Posplayr Implementation

Excellent write up, I guess I know what I am doing this afternoon. I wonder if this Thread should/can be copied to the Performance Section? I am sure I am not the only dummy who would benefit . . .

Thanks

 

[Steve]

You could use your kickstand safety interlock to disable the Dyna 2000 ignition/coils ...

Do some GSs actually kill the bike with the stand down? :-s

My wife's '82 850L only turns on a light in the spdeedometer. 8-[

I would think that it would make it awkward to start and warm up the bike while donning appropriate gear.

.

 

[posplayr]

Steve

Steve

I was joking about that mod, there are already three switches on the handlebars to work with. The visualization of kicking the kick stand up to activate the ignition coils to start the motor is was struck me funny :-D

I hope RapidRay does not return from and enjoyable weekend in horror to see his switch idea so maligned.

I put this on the top of my priority list as I have had to go through the ordeal of getting a GS1100 rotor hub off ; in comparison the GS750 rotor virtually just fell off. If I get my new harness for my GS1100ED I dont want to have to chop the harness. A sacrificial switch is much better in my book.

I updated with an overview in the first post.


Posplayr