Interesting oil observation

[Tool]

I normally use Mobil 1 5W-50 and change it (& filter) every 5000km. At the last change tried some cheaper Castrol 10W-50 synthetic. Problem is, with the Castrol the engine rattles under power until fully warmed up. Had the same problem with 5W-50 Valvoline synthetic too (they're all full synthetics).

So replaced with Mobil 1 last night and this morning no problems. Same leaving work this afternoon. No noise. Spins over more willingly. Nicer clutch action. The weather is cool @ between 5-18C, but certainly not really cold.

It's a GS850 with only 61,000km on the clock. Runs very quiet and smooth apart from the usual cam end-float noise during warmup.

Seems the old dear has expensive tastes and prefers Mobil 1.

 

[Jethro]

There is no doubt that Mobil 1 is a fine, fine oil. I use the 15-50 red cap most of the time.

However, upon occasion I do go with cheaper stuff- depends what my mood is like that day- and I don't really notice any ill effects.

 

[redliner1973]

There is a difference between the 3 oils you mentioned. The Mobile is a Group lV PAO full synthetic. The other 2 are Group lll Hydrocracked dino oils. THere is also a bigger spread between numbers, therefore neccessitating more Viscosity improvers in the latter 2. the Mobile 1 starts as a 15w base. I think this is what your noticing in the cold operation.

 

[gsBert]

I never recomment using synthetic oil in a motorcycle.

because fools are fools and believe synth lasts longer, they dont change their oil as often, which caused most manufacturers to add tons of detergents to them. (this is a very wrong and dangerous belief as synth collects as much dust as regular oil and needs to be flushed out as often)

also some oils contain sh!t like teflon and other low friction add-ins.
while possibly ok-ish for a car's crankcase, they are hell on your clutch which bathes in engine oil.

synth is also more expensive, especially if you get one formulated for motorcycles and wet clutches. it's a waste of money since you'll be throwing it away in a month or so when you change it.
the only advantage synthetic has is it won't catch on fire (which makes it mandatory in a race car, and that's the only place i use it, and then only for the race, not for regular driving (racecar was also my daily driver)

i personally use a 50/50 mix of 10-40 and 20w50. my preferred brand is pennzoil, it's cheap and has virtually no detergents. never had any problems with it.

maybe your problem isnt the cheap/expensive oil but the viscosity modifiers they use in their formula, or other additives you wouldn't want anyways. when it comes to oil, keep it simple, NEVER use any oil additives.

 

[Wingnut]

I never recomment using synthetic oil in a motorcycle.

because fools are fools and believe synth lasts longer, they dont change their oil as often, which caused most manufacturers to add tons of detergents to them. (this is a very wrong and dangerous belief as synth collects as much dust as regular oil and needs to be flushed out as often)

also some oils contain sh!t like teflon and other low friction add-ins.
while possibly ok-ish for a car's crankcase, they are hell on your clutch which bathes in engine oil.

synth is also more expensive, especially if you get one formulated for motorcycles and wet clutches. it's a waste of money since you'll be throwing it away in a month or so when you change it.
the only advantage synthetic has is it won't catch on fire (which makes it mandatory in a race car, and that's the only place i use it, and then only for the race, not for regular driving (racecar was also my daily driver)

i personally use a 50/50 mix of 10-40 and 20w50. my preferred brand is pennzoil, it's cheap and has virtually no detergents. never had any problems with it.

maybe your problem isnt the cheap/expensive oil but the viscosity modifiers they use in their formula, or other additives you wouldn't want anyways. when it comes to oil, keep it simple, NEVER use any oil additives.

To the opinions on oil there is no end, so here's mine.

I run sythetic oil for one reason only. It can withstand much higher temps which are comon in air cooled engines. I do not use extended change intervals though as I agree it needs to be changed. You have a gearbox sharing the same oil and gearboxes are dirty. Jet engines have been using synthetics for 60 years because dino oil cannot take the heat in the back end.

Just my .02

 

[gsBert]

if your oil/air cooled gs overheats, you need to get out of downtown traffic and ride it where it s meant to be ridden, lol.

some synthy oils resist higher temps, but that doesnt mean your engine can.

one advantage of synths i forgot to mention is the 0w50 thing, and that is great.

I got nothing special against synthetic oils, as long as they dont have clutch-lube(TM) in them... and you dont mind paying the extra penny.
I prefer to save my cash for gas and tires.

 

[redliner1973]

I personally use a 50/50 mix of 10-40 and 20w50. my preferred brand is pennzoil, it's cheap and has virtually no detergents. never had any problems with it.

Pennzoil, along with Havoline, Mobile Dino, and Castrol, have the highest detergency amounts of any popular oil. Valvoline the least. It is not the detergents that cause the 'clutch slip' most complained about, it is the friction modifier additives such as moly disulfide. Pennzoil, has one of the most robust base oils of any of the Dinos.

if your oil/air cooled gs overheats, you need to get out of downtown traffic and ride it where it s meant to be ridden, lol.

So true! but it is proven that synthetics can keep that oil from breaking down as quick and sludging up the motor, or worse yet, losing it's lubricity altogether. So if your in that situation, you have a somewhat better edge in not killing your engine if you cannot get out fast enough.

 

[Tool]

We could start a discussion on this subject

I don't agree with no synthetic. Many synthetics are fine with wet clutches - just not the friction modified energy saving type stuff.

True oil gets dirty. 5000km/3000miles works for my riding patterns (no short runs) and it's about dirty enough by then.

The synthetic will be in better nick towards the end of it's life where a dino would be breaking down by 1000-1500km. We also get conditions here when it can be <10C in the morning and 35-40C in the afternoon. I'm happier with synthetic in these conditions. My clutch is.

The cost isn't much compared with other costs such as fuel.

Is dino bad? No. I'm happy to pay for the advantages of a good synthetic - but that's just an opinion.

Using one or the other type of oil isn't compulsory. Having a classic Suzuki GS is :!:

 

[gsBert]

so true!

hey prop, thanks for correcting me on the detergent stuff...

i knew there was a reason i used pennzoil, actually they had a detergent free oil a while ago that i kept buying all the time but now i guess i no longer pay attention and just buy the yellow jugs. guess that's a dangerous habit. brand loyalty sucks. ill look into the havoline.

riding a gs is so compulsory, i have 3 ('82 750, 81 1100, 84 1150)

 

[schinae]

My most recent test was the "shell rotella t" heavy duty, stuff works great. Designed for heavy duty trucks and deisel motors it resists temp, works with wet clutches and costs less than 10 bucks for a gallon. At that price, you can always just change it without filter halfway through your regular interval if you really feel the need.
-Evan

 

[humhead]

Here's a link to an old article in MCN comparing motorcycle oils to automobile oils. http://www.xs11.com/stories/mcnoil94.htm
The viscosity retention test results are interesting. The synthetic oils retain more of their original viscosity than conventional oils. The biggest drop in viscosity occurs in the first 1000 miles.
I personally use Mobil 1 15-50 in both my 750 & 1000. This particular oil does not have the "friction modifiers" that cause wet clutches to slip. Haven't had any problems yet.
I also have oil coolers installed on all my bikes. Definitely makes a difference in hot weather. The NYC metro area can generate a traffic jam anywhere any time. If I sit too long I shut the bike off.

Terry

 

[bwringer]

Yeesh, this topic again? :roll:

Anyway, I use mostly Golden Spectro 20W-50 (a semi-synthetic motorcycle-specific oil) and occasionally 15W-50 Mobil 1 (the old full synthetic version).

I whip my GS850 like a rented mule, and these are the only two oils I've found that will hold up more than a few hundred miles.

One problem is that Mobil 1 has recently stopped making the 15W-50 synthetic with the red cap. They now make a 15W-50 synthetic with a gold cap, and advertise it for a 15,000 mile change interval in cars. The problem is that this is a new formula with lots of added detergents and "anti-wear additives". These added anti wear additives may not be compatible with motorcycle clutches. I don't know, and I'm not about to volunteer my bike as the guinea pig.

The Mobil oil now available with the red cap is NOT a synthetic, and is no longer available in 15W-50. Read those labels -- they are VERY deceptive! You can still find leftover stock of the old Mobil 1 synthetic 15-W-50 in stores once in a while -- that's what's in my bike at the moment. Personally, I think Mobil is being extremely deceptive by packaging conventional oil in bottles and labels nearly identical to their synthetics. It's also very confusing -- most oils have different color caps or labels to indicate the weight of the oil, not the formula.

In my bike, the signs that an oil has started to break down are subtle but unmistakable. Shifting action deteriorates and the engine gets noisier. I also feel and hear bigger temperature-based differences in these signs when the oil starts to break down. In other words, with better oil, the shifting action and mechanical noise stay much more stable with engine temperature.

I've tried and rejected the following:
15W-40 diesel oil (I do use this in my wife's Honda 400, and would certainly consider it in a newer engine)
Valvoline Motorcycle Oil (20W-50 non-synthetic) - absolute garbage
Valvoline Synthetic Motorcycle oil (20W-50) - expensive absolute garbage
Valvoline 20W-50 racing oil - not bad, actually. Hard to find.
Suzuki 10W-40 oil - garbage
Castrol - not bad, but still goes "off" much faster than semi-synthetic or synthetic

Your experiences may be different, of couse. There are many here who swear by the 15W-40 diesel oil, many who see "10W-40" on the bike's oil fill cap and treat it as an absolute commandment, and a few perverts who buy whatever's cheapest at Wal-Mart and dump it in.

None of these strategies will cause engine damage. Pretty much any oil now available between 10W-40 and 20W-50 will do a fine job of protecting your GS engine as long as you change it at decent intervals.

And for 99% of riders, there is probably no functional difference either. In my case, I do notice differences because I'm a rather aggressive rider (redline is 9,000 rpm, and I'm a regular visitor) and my bike has a lot of miles on it (68,000).

Others with different bikes and different styles of riding will need to pay attention to their engines and form their own opinions.

 

[Poot]

There is a difference between the 3 oils you mentioned. The Mobile is a Group lV PAO full synthetic. The other 2 are Group lll Hydrocracked dino oils. THere is also a bigger spread between numbers, therefore neccessitating more Viscosity improvers in the latter 2. the Mobile 1 starts as a 15w base. I think this is what your noticing in the cold operation.

This is a very important factor in synthetics, often ignored, or not even known of.

It makes all of the difference, since the base stock of the Group III Hydrocracked oils, are not true synthetic oil. more like dinosaurs on steroids.

 

[dpep]

In my 850 I used the old Mobil 1 15/50 automobile synthetic from 10,000 to 100,000 miles. Worked great. Ran it in hot conditions; ran it dangerously low on oil at times. It saved me. I had a crank up rebuild done at 100,000 which in hindsight I regret (don't fix what ain't broke). The valve guides should have been replaced but were not, so it is now using oil; so I do not use synthetic. I now use the 20w/50 that I can pick up on sale. As best I can figure I am using a quart every 500 miles or so. That would mean I completely turn over my oil every 2000 miles or less. Each time I add oil I bring the viscosity back up some. I still change oil and filter at 3000.

One thing I have noticed lately is that my clutch does not completely disengage the transmission when I first start up in the morning. Once it warms up a bit it works fine. That may or may not be related to the oil used.

When I get the valve guides replaced and the consumption stopped, I would like to go back to the Mobil 1 15/50 synthetic if it is available. I am sorry to hear that it may not be. I'll just cross that bridge when....

From what I have read the main advantage to synthetic is that it sticks to the metal and provides lubrication in those first seconds when you start up avoiding any periods of metal on metal where max wear occurs. Perhaps someone who works in that area could comment.

 

[jimcor]

Everyone seems to comment how much better a bike shifts with synthetic oils. I have found the exact opposite in my 550. Mobile 1 15/50 red cap never seemed as smooth in the box as Rotella T or Delvac 1300S, both 15/40 dino juice. Delvac (Mobil) is a buck a gallon less than Rotella, generally. and has a little more zinc than the Shell product.

As to the Group III oils being called 'synthetic' you can thank Castrol for that. They won a court case that gave them the right to call their Group III's synthetic. I don't like them because they charge a full PAO price for them.

 

[bwringer]

Everyone seems to comment how much better a bike shifts with synthetic oils. I have found the exact opposite in my 550. Mobile 1 15/50 red cap never seemed as smooth in the box as Rotella T or Delvac 1300S, both 15/40 dino juice. Delvac (Mobil) is a buck a gallon less than Rotella, generally. and has a little more zinc than the Shell product.

I think there's only point anyone's going to agree on -- you have to pay attention to what your engine is doing, experiment, and decide for yourself.