LED turn signal question.

[Matchless]

Steve,
Initially when I bought my GS1000 the flashers did not work properly and I plugged in a 2 pin flasher unit. The flashers then worked perfectly but the ASCU part did not work. After studying the manual a bit I found that 23 watt bulbs were required and we only get 21W bulbs here and the PO had put smaller 10Watts in the rear flasher, thus giving me only a total of 31 Watts. Going to 42 Watts has got everything working with the original flasher including the ASCU, but with slightly slower flashing that stops and glows permanently when I stop with brakes and lights on.

I have since copied out the OEM 3 prong flasher diagram and found that the relay has a double coil and control prong to the ASCU and was looking around for a schematic of the ASCU with good intentions of a possible mod to work at lower load, but it was put aside for other more important things!
I am thus also interested in this and was wondering if someone has picked the resin out of an old one and drawn up the schematic or if someone has designed a DIY replacement that can be used.

 

[Steve]

Update on my end ... well, not much of a progress report, just to let you know that things have been ganging up on my and I have not had time to check anythng yet.

Matchless, that is pretty much what I have suspected about the 3-prong flashers, and is pretty much the point of this whole thread. My original question still remains ... has anyone replaced their flasher with an electronic flasher (does not matter if you still have incandescent bulbs or LEDs) and retained the self-cancel feature?

I will have to check some of the flashers on the store shelf to see if they have diagrams explaining what their third prong does. If nothing else, I might have to install a relay in the power lead to a 2-prong flasher. The relay would be triggered by the lead that used to go to the third prong on the stock flasher if that's what that thrid wire does. 8-[

Ernie (EZman), you have a GL1800? My 1500 does not have a 'lights out' feature, so I suspect it might be one of the newer ones.

.

 

[Matchless]

Steve,
Here is an alternative http://www.triumph-online.co.uk/tri...sher-unit-kisan-signal-minder-sm-1-1453-p.asp

It does not sense the speedo, but as it watches the brake release it should work well.

 

[Steve]

Could not get that page to open, but I saw in the header that it was in reference to a Kisan Signal Minder. Nice unit, but a bit $pendy at $110. I think I will resort to the "relay that feeds power to the electronic flasher" trick, if necessary. 8-[

I might get a chance to work on it this afternoon.

.

 

[EZman]

HI Steve,
I have an 83 GL1100.
I just changed out the flasher unit to one of those that don't care what the load is. Everything still works just like it did before.
Even when I hook up the trailer it still works the same.
To me it was worth the 4 bucks. I rather not get into the cancellation units and other stuff that controls them.
Ernie

 

[Steve]

Everything still works just like it did before.
... I rather not get into the cancellation units and other stuff that controls them.
Ernie

OK, so clarify for me please. Did your self-cancel work before the new flasher or not?

.

 

[Matchless]

Steve,
I had a look at a couple of wiring diagrams and read the bit on the operation of the self cancelling unit in the manual and noticed these:

1) The description in the manual is only for the older and larger self cancelling unit with 2 x plug connectors and it also seems a bit larger. See wiring diagram GS850 1979
2) The 1980 model bike has a smaller self cancelling unit with 7 wires coming out of it. See wiring diagram GS1000 1980.
3) The operation and diagram in the service manual is only for the older type and even the owners manual instruction is the same as for the older type.
4)The signal from the speedometer seems to be just a reed relay that is operated by a magnet on every revolution of the speedo. Have not measured pulses per rev, may be more than one.
5)Suzuki seems to measure the frequency of these pulses and thus determines when you reach a speed of 15km/h.
6) Honda used this to measure the distance to determine when you have travelled 100 meters
7) In addition some other makes also sense the brakes and only start when the brakes are released.
8)There is also a timer built in the Honda unit which will cancell the flashers if both requirements are met, 10 seconds and 100 meters travelled
9)The wiring diagram shows a push to cancell switch that will manually cancell the flashers, this is not mentioned in the GS1000 1980 owners manual. Apparently the flasher button has to be pushed down - mine does not work.
10) The older self cancelling unit shows a 2 pin flasher and the newer one a 3 pin flasher
11) A 2 pin aftermarket flasher does operate the flashers properly, but the self cancelling feature does not work - only proved on the 1980 3 pin types.
12) The Honda unit also uses a 3 pin flasher unit, same as the later Suzukis and the "C" lug goes to the self cancelling unit.
13) I read somewhere that for some makes the 3rd lug is used for running lights and the writer cautioned that the flashers bulbs should not be used as running lights as their design did not allow for high heat build up and lower wattage bulbs should be used, obviously another reason to use led's.

Maybe someone could design a small replacement using a PIC and thus allowing LED lamps and still have self cancelling features?

 

[Steve]

Thank you, Matchless. That explains some of my suspicions, but I am still going to do some experimentation. TheCafeKid and I were busy most of yesterday getting my son's 850 almost ready to roll, but we are still waiting on a couple of gaskets that are back-ordered. When this current flurry of activity subsides, I am going to do some checking on my wife's '82 850L, but I suspect that the Sky Blue wire that goes from the control unit to the flasher can be used to activate a relay that would then control power to a 2-pin electronic flasher. Hope to find out later today.

.

 

[bakalorz]

<snip>

Maybe someone could design a small replacement using a PIC and thus allowing LED lamps and still have self cancelling features?

I'm doing just that.

It will use a PIC16HV785 which is a 20-pin pic.
It has a built in voltage regulator, (also comparators, opamps, a/d converter and more, which I don't use)
I have it set up with 8 inputs, and up to 10 outputs (p-channel mosfets)

I've designed and etched a board, and was farting around with the software, but got busy with other things (swingsets, bleeding brakes, changing tires ... still have to do valve clearances, sync carbs ... )

When I get it done, I'll provide info.
I'll post the layout and my code.
I'd probably program pics for people and make minor changes to code, but won't etch or solder boards.

 

[Matchless]

I'm doing just that.

It will use a PIC16HV785 which is a 20-pin pic.
It has a built in voltage regulator, (also comparators, opamps, a/d converter and more, which I don't use)
I have it set up with 8 inputs, and up to 10 outputs (p-channel mosfets)

I've designed and etched a board, and was farting around with the software, but got busy with other things (swingsets, bleeding brakes, changing tires ... still have to do valve clearances, sync carbs ... )

When I get it done, I'll provide info.
I'll post the layout and my code.
I'd probably program pics for people and make minor changes to code, but won't etch or solder boards.

Martin,
Thanks man! I wanted to ask you, but thought it a bit forward. Unfortunately I am also busy with the mechanics and have the bike in pieces.
Thanks again.

 

[82 GS1100GK]

I have LED lights on my GS1100GK and I have picked up the heavy duty flasher unit for $3.00 at a autoparts store and did a test and the lights still cancel after turning and the lights are very bright. I bought the heavy duty flasher on advice of another biker who said the heavy duty flasher bases the flash on the bulb. If you don't change flasher the lights will only come on and that is it. I also changed the tail light and it really made a difference that is for sure.

 

[MN_gs550]

found relay

found relay

Steve,
I'm new to this site but I stumbled across this thread .
Funny thing is i have the small led signals and was looking into a digital speedo and found this relay that will help you out .

http://www.electrosport.com/products/product-detail-2027.php

good luck and keep me posted on how it turns out.

AL

 

[Steve]

Thanks, but the issue is not finding a flasher that will work with LED signals.

The issue is finding a flasher that will work with LED signals AND retain the self-cancelling feature.

I just came in from playing with the '81 and the '82 850s. I have found that, of the three wires on the flasher, the Orange/Green wire receives power in, the Light Blue is the output to the selector switch, and the Black/Blue wire goes to the control unit.

There are seven wires on the control unit:
Black/White is a ground
Orange/Green wire is 12 volt power IN
Blue/Red goes to the distance sensor
Black/Red returns from the distance sensor
Light Green/Black goes to the selector switch and appears to receive power from its Orange/Red wire when either signal is SET
Brown/Yellow also goes to the selector switch and appears to ground to the Black/White wire when the selector in in the center CANCEL position
The Black/Blue wire goes to the flasher. I am guessing that it's to control whether the flasher operates.

Using a test light, when I touched the Black/Blue wire, the flashing stopped, apparently the test light was providing enough ground to cancel the signal. I will have to try again with my meter, as it will not load the circuit as much as the test light does.

.

 

[Matchless]

Any further progress on this one?

 

[Steve]

Regrettably, no.


I spent three of the last four months of last year working out of state.
By the time I got home for Christmas, my garage had been turned into a storage facility with barely a path going through it.
A couple of weeks ago, my wife and I started going through the stuff to see what was staying and what was leaving, either via Goodwill or BFI.
We made a serious dent in the amount of "stuff". This past weekend, we found my work bench.
I had found a small part of the 9-foot bench last fall to be able to do some carb work, but this is the first time the entire length has been cleared for at least 10 years.
I think one more day of some serious cleaning out there and I can re-classify it as a work area. :dancing:

Once the work starts, I have Mike Riddle's bike to work on and three sets of carbs to do before I can start working on our bikes.
Her bike just needs some general maintenance stuff and a new r/r.
The list for my bike is a bit longer, and includes timing belts and tensioners, spark plugs and air filters (yes, there's more than one).
If I have time, both bikes need steering head bearings changed, but we have gotten used to them in the condition they are in, so priority is low on them.

.

 

[Matchless]

I have a similar problem, also so many pending things and found that it is also due to space, but in my case too much of it, but in my wallet.

If you do catch up again and manage to look at this and figure out any more let us know.
I am looking at converting some truck lights so that the led cluster with the low/high controller will fit into the flashers. It seems as if these have a reflector for each individual led and thus much brighter than a substitute led bulb.
Keep well

 

[Spyder]

Wait! ! ! Your saying my 83' gs 750 has self canceling signals?!?!
I'll have to try that out.
on a side note, I don't see how the flasher it self would affect the canceling mechanism. In 82' I don't wouldn't think this system is that sophisticated.
Just a thought...

 

[Matchless]

Wait! ! ! Your saying my 83' gs 750 has self canceling signals?!?!
I'll have to try that out.
on a side note, I don't see how the flasher it self would affect the canceling mechanism. In 82' I don't wouldn't think this system is that sophisticated.
Just a thought...

At the time it was quite innovative. I can assure you the flasher unit and the self cancelling unit works quite well. I am busy looking into it at the moment and I can just confirm that on my GS1000G 1980 the self cancelling unit requires a special flasher unit to work. If someone swops the flasher unit with a generic one the self cancelling function will not work.

 

[Steve]

Wait! ! ! Your saying my 83' gs 750 has self canceling signals?!?!
I'll have to try that out.
on a side note, I don't see how the flasher it self would affect the canceling mechanism. In 82' I don't wouldn't think this system is that sophisticated.
Just a thought...

Check #1. First, look at the switch. Does it say AUTO or AUTO TURN somewhere on the face? Maybe it's worn off, so go to check #2.
Check #2. Another way to tell is to feel the switch. The non-cancelling switch only has three positions, and there are firm detents for each position. The auto-cancelling system has five positions. Three where the switch will stay when put there, and two on the ends that are spring-loaded. For example: when you start the left turn sequence, you push the switch into position #1 and it returns to position #2. It will stay there until you move it for another turn. If you move the switch to position #3 while the signals are flashing, they will be cancelled. To start the right signals flashing after you have done a left turn, you have to move the switch from #2 all the way to #5, then it will return to #4.

I still have not tested the system, but the stock flasher relay has three terminals that are labelled B, L, and C. The B is connected to power (Battery). The L is connected to the lights (Load), the C is connected to the control unit (Control). It is my opinion that there is a switch of some sort (might just be a transistor) inside the flasher unit along with the thermally-activated flasher unit. I think that switch turns on power to the relay, based on what the control unit is telling it. The status of that line seems to be the only thing that changes to cancel the turn signals after sufficient time and distance have happened. You can use a standard 2-prong flasher as many here have done, and it will flash the signals quite well. The trick is to be able to use that control wire to activate a relay to allow power to get to the flasher. So ... if, indeed, that is the way the system works, yes, they were that sophisticated back in '82. Then, again, I'm not sure what the smallest bike was that had self-cancelling signals. I'm reasonably sure the 650 did not have them, I know for a fact that the 850 did, just not sure whether the 750 did or not.

Using a standard automotive-type 3-prong flasher won't work with our bikes. Well, the flashers will work, but they won't self-cancel. On those flashers, the third prong is usually a ground connection, so it would always ground out the output of the control unit. The signals would still flash if the other two terminals match up to the bike terminals as far as function. I have seen different arrangements of terminals on the 3-prong flashers, with some of them having the ground pin in the middle, instead of at one end, so those flashers won't work in the bikes at all.

The only testing I have managed to accomplish so far was to start the signals flashing, then touch the C terminal with my test light to see if it was hot. When I touched the light, the signals cancelled, and the test light did not come on. That is why I want to do the same thing with my digital meter, as it will not load the line as much, thinking it has been grounded by the control unit.

If anyone else has any interest in this, please feel free to pick up the ball and run with it. It might be at least another month before I can get around to experimentation. Gotta get some cleaning and repair work done before I start playing.

 

[cruz del sur]

sounds like we can expect a pictorial if not a video-tutorial on cliff's website 8-[

not that i'm complaining :-D

.

Actually, Cliff has one. I have it copied in the computer, but don't have the URL.

Found it. Here it is: http://members.dslextreme.com/users/storagecliff/images/turn_signal_relay_replacement.pdf