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Guest
Guest
The fifth gear thing probably has to do with the linkage to the gear shifter.
Don't fret yet.
Don't fret yet.
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CivilRock
Guest
I sure hope you're right. 
ray:
But that's the first thing I looked at. I do have a funky DIY reverse shift (GP Shift) set-up. But when I was attempting to go into 5th the lever was not binding or hitting anything and it was getting full travel. BTW, this somewhat janky setup lines up the linkage a lot better than it does with the stock ball/socket locations.
I don't have a good straight down picture, but the linkage is ever so slightly angled in toward the bike as it goes forward. Would that slight (outward) lateral pressure inhibit it from going into 5th?
EDIT: Sorry, with the GP shift, the linkage would be slightly pulling out on the shift shaft as it's asking for 5th gear.
ray:But that's the first thing I looked at. I do have a funky DIY reverse shift (GP Shift) set-up. But when I was attempting to go into 5th the lever was not binding or hitting anything and it was getting full travel. BTW, this somewhat janky setup lines up the linkage a lot better than it does with the stock ball/socket locations.
I don't have a good straight down picture, but the linkage is ever so slightly angled in toward the bike as it goes forward. Would that slight (outward) lateral pressure inhibit it from going into 5th?
EDIT: Sorry, with the GP shift, the linkage would be slightly pulling out on the shift shaft as it's asking for 5th gear.
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harley10
Guest
Yeah that doesn't look right , linkage looks wrong should be down lower,like under shifter, Brian
I sure hope you're right.
But that's the first thing I looked at. I do have a funky DIY reverse shift (GP Shift) set-up. But when I was attempting to go into 5th the lever was not binding or hitting anything and it was getting full travel. BTW, this somewhat janky setup lines up the linkage a lot better than it does with the stock ball/socket locations.
I don't have a good straight down picture, but the linkage is ever so slightly angled in toward the bike as it goes forward. Would that slight (outward) lateral pressure inhibit it from going into 5th?
EDIT: Sorry, with the GP shift, the linkage would be slightly pulling out on the shift shaft as it's asking for 5th gear.
I think you need to rotate the shifter and shorten the rod so that you get a 90 deg angle between the two.
You have great leverage down shifting (pulling the rod) but no wonder trouble upshifting as pushing the rod only goes so far at that angle.
See picture attached.
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CivilRock
Guest
Jim I love your quick photo edits. That's awesome work. And a good eye.
I know not too many people use reverse shifting on a GS, but I need it. That's another story about massive MX ankle injury/surgery and my road race history with GP shift bikes. But with a reverse shift bike, the linkage is pulling on the shift rod as I'm pushing down on the lever as it asks for 5th gear.
You're right Jim, it should be 90 deg anyway. I will adjust the linkage and triple check everything with it. I called my builder buddy who inspected the motor for me and he said the shift drum looked just fine when he opened it up and it shifted into 5th on the bench fine.
I'll go back to regular shift if I have to. Or at least to calm myself down and make sure I don't need a tranny rebuild.
I know not too many people use reverse shifting on a GS, but I need it. That's another story about massive MX ankle injury/surgery and my road race history with GP shift bikes. But with a reverse shift bike, the linkage is pulling on the shift rod as I'm pushing down on the lever as it asks for 5th gear.
You're right Jim, it should be 90 deg anyway. I will adjust the linkage and triple check everything with it. I called my builder buddy who inspected the motor for me and he said the shift drum looked just fine when he opened it up and it shifted into 5th on the bench fine.
I'll go back to regular shift if I have to. Or at least to calm myself down and make sure I don't need a tranny rebuild.
I know little personally on the topic, but recall member HJ fisk recently saying that the knockoff piggyback shocks on his roadkill bike didnt work very well.
Any chance you can run stock shift pattern for testing purposes? To rule out a problem with 5th?
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CivilRock
Guest
I sat with the bike just now and fiddled with the shifter. Here's the problem: In between shifts the lever doesn't go back to the absolute middle so it can catch the next notch on the shift drum. When I was trying to get 5th if I lifted up on the lever just slightly, it would then grab the next gear. (remember, GP shift)
To me, this is a huge relief. Maybe the spring that centers the lever is bound?Maybe it just needs to get some hours on it. This motor was sitting for years, and the seller didn't know how long it was sitting. It was owned by a guy that had a collection of GS bikes and he lost a battle to cancer while this bike was in pieces waiting for a restoration.
I did adjust the linkage closer to 90 deg.
To me, this is a huge relief. Maybe the spring that centers the lever is bound?Maybe it just needs to get some hours on it. This motor was sitting for years, and the seller didn't know how long it was sitting. It was owned by a guy that had a collection of GS bikes and he lost a battle to cancer while this bike was in pieces waiting for a restoration.
I did adjust the linkage closer to 90 deg.
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CivilRock
Guest
I returned it to the normal shift pattern, and the problem is still there. I know problems are usually to do with something I've screwed around with , but this time it's not the linkage.
I started looking at diagrams and figured the problem was with the shift pawl and it's interaction with the drum. So I pulled the clutch basket out and had a look for myself to see what was going on.
I found the problem, but I don't know how to fix it. And since I don't know the names of all these parts and I'd have a terrible time describing the problem, I decided video was the best way to show demonstrate it.
Watch this, and hopefully it's an easy adjustment. I read about pawl centering adjustment maybe? But I have no idea how to do it. I figure one of you smart fellers can point me in the right direction.
http://youtu.be/MWyF1HSGbtc
-Kevin
I started looking at diagrams and figured the problem was with the shift pawl and it's interaction with the drum. So I pulled the clutch basket out and had a look for myself to see what was going on.
I found the problem, but I don't know how to fix it. And since I don't know the names of all these parts and I'd have a terrible time describing the problem, I decided video was the best way to show demonstrate it.
Watch this, and hopefully it's an easy adjustment. I read about pawl centering adjustment maybe? But I have no idea how to do it. I figure one of you smart fellers can point me in the right direction.
http://youtu.be/MWyF1HSGbtc
-Kevin
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CivilRock
Guest
I sat there and looked at this for a long time. I suspected the cam centering device, but then I noticed that the shift shaft gears are not lined up perfectly with the pawl device.
Check out this picture. It's where the shift drum wants to center itself. I think the locating pins for the shift shaft are off. Maybe the shift shaft is bent? Could this have been an oversight from the factory?
If I push the shift shaft so that it's perfectly centered and in line with the drum center, the little pawl fingers are perfectly spaced to grab the next gear.
I propose to remove the shift shaft, and adjust the little locating pin. File one side, and weld a little flat blob on the other side so that the shift shaft is centered and in line with the shift drum.
Bad idea?
-Kevin
Check out this picture. It's where the shift drum wants to center itself. I think the locating pins for the shift shaft are off. Maybe the shift shaft is bent? Could this have been an oversight from the factory?
If I push the shift shaft so that it's perfectly centered and in line with the drum center, the little pawl fingers are perfectly spaced to grab the next gear.
I propose to remove the shift shaft, and adjust the little locating pin. File one side, and weld a little flat blob on the other side so that the shift shaft is centered and in line with the shift drum.
Bad idea?
-Kevin
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There is nothing wrong with what I am looking at Kevin. Do NOT file & weld on that pin!!! When you are shifting it by hand, you need to be rotating the input shaft at the same time to see it work smoothly. Remove the circlip on the left side that holds the shift shaft in & pull the shift shaft out to check if it is bent. Plan on replacing the shift shaft seal on the left side while you have it apart. Ray.
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harley10
Guest
Listen to Ray , he knows what he is doing , before you start filing and welding and stuff , even call him , I think it's a easy fix , Brian
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GSX1000E
Guest
From actually watching your very good video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWyF1HSGbtc&feature=youtu.be , it almost looks like the shifter shaft might be slightly twisted and/or the return spring is weak. :-k
There's also that indent spring attached to the shift drum which hangs on the case webbing. You can access it from the oil pan. Doesn't explain how it's shifting through the other gears though, if it's broken.
My friend tore his whole motor down on a 750ES, to find this spring broken, when it could have been accessed through the oil pan cover.
Hopefully it's not a bent shift fork, but I guess there's still some time before summer starts.
My friend tore his whole motor down on a 750ES, to find this spring broken, when it could have been accessed through the oil pan cover.
Hopefully it's not a bent shift fork, but I guess there's still some time before summer starts.
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CivilRock
Guest
Fixed it. 
Fixed it.
Maybe the pictures and video don't show exactly the problem (I think so), but I think if you guys were there in person you'd see the problem. And what you can't see in the video is that the bike is laying on it's side. I have my left hand reaching under the bike on the shift lever and my right hand rotating the input shaft. (that's why you hear a little grunt from me, as it was a twisted up position for the film crew)
I'm glad you guys told me not to file/weld on the locating pin because it caused me to re-think my approach to what I believe was the problem. I pulled the shift shaft and it was straight as an arrow. Instead of adjusting the pins, I chose to adjust the spring on the shift shaft. I wasn't sure if the spring would accept any "tuning" because it's probably spring steel, but it was very compliant. I thought that if my little plan didn't work I could return the spring back to it's original shape or worst case buy a new one. So I put the spring in my vice and very slightly bent the tips of the spring in the direction I wanted.
I got it adjusted perfect on the first try. Now the shift shaft gear is perfectly lined up with the pawl. If you look at this picture at the orientation of the shift shaft gear and the pawl gear, you can see that it's right in the middle. Also you can see the legs of the pawl (the little ratcheting device) has equal clearance with the notches of the shift drum. I circled the error on the previous post.
It's an ever so slight adjustment, but made all the difference in the world. works perfect now. And I believe the ever so slight "tuning" bend that I put in the tips of the spring should be permanent.
-Kevin
Fixed it.
Maybe the pictures and video don't show exactly the problem (I think so), but I think if you guys were there in person you'd see the problem. And what you can't see in the video is that the bike is laying on it's side. I have my left hand reaching under the bike on the shift lever and my right hand rotating the input shaft. (that's why you hear a little grunt from me, as it was a twisted up position for the film crew)
I'm glad you guys told me not to file/weld on the locating pin because it caused me to re-think my approach to what I believe was the problem. I pulled the shift shaft and it was straight as an arrow. Instead of adjusting the pins, I chose to adjust the spring on the shift shaft. I wasn't sure if the spring would accept any "tuning" because it's probably spring steel, but it was very compliant. I thought that if my little plan didn't work I could return the spring back to it's original shape or worst case buy a new one. So I put the spring in my vice and very slightly bent the tips of the spring in the direction I wanted.
I got it adjusted perfect on the first try. Now the shift shaft gear is perfectly lined up with the pawl. If you look at this picture at the orientation of the shift shaft gear and the pawl gear, you can see that it's right in the middle. Also you can see the legs of the pawl (the little ratcheting device) has equal clearance with the notches of the shift drum. I circled the error on the previous post.
It's an ever so slight adjustment, but made all the difference in the world. works perfect now. And I believe the ever so slight "tuning" bend that I put in the tips of the spring should be permanent.
-Kevin
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Nice effort in running this one down. I'm wondering in that closeup of the spring, if is it worn or was it heated just on the other side of where your wrench is? If so I would be tempted to order a new one right away.
It should not be that compliant as it is spring steel, so I would take that as a warning.
It should not be that compliant as it is spring steel, so I would take that as a warning.
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CivilRock
Guest
I didn't notice that spot in person. Not the first time I've seen flaws in close ups that I didn't see with my naked eye.
Both ends of the spring were equally resistant to my adjustment, so I'm inclined to think that I just had a large amount of leverage on a small part. Also, the bend I put into it was ever so slight. I didn't know how many times I was going to have to put it in the vice so I started with a baby step.
I'm just going to let it ride, and if there's an issue, I'll know where to look. I'm not getting paid to race this thing, and I'm not going to ride it across the country.
But your advice is noted for sure. :-k And I appreciate it.
-Kevin