New coils/won's start

[mike1414]

Hey all,


So my beauty/beast was riding well up until about a month ago when it started sputtering and losing power, then wouldn't start (although it would crank). I figured that it was likely the coils and figured that they could use replacing, so although I am on a limited budget, I purchased a new set of coils to install. My old ones, although I didn't test them, looked like hell and the symptoms pointed to coils.

(My old coils)


So I replaced the old Dyna coils with an [essentially] generic set of coils that mimic the Dyna coils in that they are 3ohm, 12 volt dual output, 30k volts. I removed my Dyna coils and plugged the wires into the same place on my new coils. I plugged the coils into the mounting bracket, although it didn't fit with the spacer as with the Dyna coil. I removed the spacer, and just mounted the coils as such:











I used the already existing wires from my Dyna coils (orange and black to my coil #2 and white and orange to my coil #1) and connected them to my new coils. The new coils came with wires as well, but I chose not to use them since my other wires appeared to be in good condition (only difference seems to be the connector on the green wires).



So, essentially, despite everything that you guys see, my motorcycle isn't even cranking. I checked all the dumb stuff (my battery is connected and charged [12.5 volts], the kill switch was on, all connections appear to be solid, and my plugs seem to be connected). Before I changed my coils, and when I suspected it to be my coils, I changed my spark plug wires (changed to 8mm instead of 7mm) and even still it didn't crank. Thus, I bought these coils, but still the same issue. I saw somewhere that you are supposed to trim the outer insulation about 0.5" to expose the inner wire, fold the inner wire over to make something like a loop, then clamp on the terminal as below:




Blurry, but the black wire is the inner wire exposed after clipping back the outer insulation




Putting the loop in the wire




Tough to see, but you can see a slight loop in the wire, the terminal clamped over it.


I have fuel, my spark plugs are all almost brand new, my connections all seem to be good and my coils are brand new. I used pliers and pulled the male end of my wires into the secondary side of my terminals, so they should hypothetically be making good contact, but it is not cranking at all. I would assume that it would have something to do with the exposure of my inner wire/the wire loop/the male and female connections of my coils, but I am wildly inexperienced; this is my first venture with coils and so far I am lost/fed up/hate it. Can anyone help to guide me as to what to do next?

Any help is so greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Mike

 

[Blue Falcon]

I like to think its simple.... is the starter trying to turn the engine over? Do you have 12v at the starter with button pushed? Did you check the solenoid? Fuse good? Clutch/brake/nuetral switch (if safety), kick stand switch (safety) these may not be installed or applicable.

plug cables for coils

 

[tom203]

Does this bike have the dyna ignition on it?

 

[Guest]

Ya I'm with Falcon, likely something simple if it won't even crank, fuse, wire unplugged etc... start checking. And it sounds as if you need a multi tester so you can test your knock off coils and make sure they actually work.

 

[mike1414]

The starter doesn't even sound like it wants to attempt at trying to kick the bike over haha. Before I changed the wires initially (using the old Dyna coils) it would at least crank like it wanted to turn over. But after replacing the wires and now the coils, same thing, it still doesn't crank.

I did not test the starter for voltage nor the solenoid as I figured that it initially was more of a mechanical problem from which the bike still hasn't been able to recover. I will go out today and test them. I do appear to have a fuse that seems to be burnt out, so I can replace that as well.

I do not have a Dyna ignition set up, still the points with just Dyna coils.

 

[mike1414]

Tested the starter relay at each OHM level, the number didn't change from 1 and there was no click. Battery was connected, bike turned to on and key on; I don't see any connections that are likely disconnected.

So it seems as though my starter relay is bad? That maybe coupled with the fuse (glass fuses still, the glass looks dusty and kind of burnt, but you can see a small portion of the fuse and it looks maintained) that is possibly burnt out could be the issue?

I'll check the coils as well, but I try my best to have faith in humanity in that their brand new part would work, but never know forsure these days.

 

[Carter Turk]

Bump starting, doesn't solve your issue, but may narrow the fault diagnosis.

 

[mike1414]

Something that I totally forgot to mention - my bike is kickstart and it will not kickstart either. The compression was poor, I switched out some shims and it was perfect, so have not checked it since.

The reason behind my initial issue, I believe, was that my #4 plug wire was cut in half. The bike cut off on me, I rigged it enough to get me 1.5 miles back home. It would sort of crank if I got that wire just right, but then installed these new wires and it has since not cranked. I installed these new coils, still won't crank. Being that it's my first time, is it likely that I just have something with the wires off?

 

[mike1414]

So I wanted to give an update and see if I can reignite interest in this thread. I recently moved to Chattanooga, TN and have my bike in storage. I have been working on diagnosing my issue, but haven't found anything of use yet. Unfortunately, I have been doing this all without my multimeter that I left in FL (still waiting on getting my 1st paycheck at my new job). So....here's how the story goes:

In total, since my bike has stopped running, I've been just throwing things at it, expecting it to be this or that. I've tried 3 different sets of spark plug wires, 1 new set of plugs, bought a new set of coils, and ripped my entire wiring harness to bare wire. My battery seems to charge well, usually sits at about 12.4 volts or so once fully charged. All of the electrical works on the bike (lights and gauges, turn signals, etc.), but I get no spark whatsoever. I've tried cleaning all of the grounds (except couldn't get one off, located under the factory battery box that is connected to something that appears to be related to the starter?). I've replaced all of my fuses (still have glass type). I get no spark with either the electrical or kick start. I have tried bypassing the kill switch, still no spark. All of the original soldering work seems to be holding up still. The motor turns over freely, there is just no resemblance of it trying to crank when I hit the ignition/kick it over. Where can I turn to next?

Thanks guys,

Mike

 

[wymple]

Cranking & ignition are different systems. If it won't crank, that has nothing to do with coils, plug wires, etc. 1st it has to crank over. When you get that going, you need ignition to make it fire. If it won't kick start (which is bypassing the starter) then you have problems in more than one area. Run a hot wire to the coils and see if it will kick start. That bypasses a lot of wiring in the system.

 

[roeme]

As hinted by yourself, you should choose a far more methodical approach, not throwing random stuff at it.

As long as you don't have a multimeter, don't bother to debug the electricals (A cheapo one is enough).

As known, to get the engine to fire, one needs:
1. Spark
2. Fuel
3. Air
4. Compression

If any of those isn't good, one approach is to trace through the corresponding "subsystem" back, starting at the cylinders.

From a cursory glance, it seems you have covered 4 (but - what are the numbers...?), and the engine is cranking now. So now on to the other points, one by one.

How have you confirmed that there is no spark? Spark plug out and touching the engine casing, looking for the spark?

If there's truly no spark, next up will be to check if the primary side of the coils have voltage at all when you turn the bike on.

 

[mike1414]

Roeme you are correct with your inference, that's how I've tested the plugs. I get no spark whatsoever. I know that fuel is escaping my tank, through my petcock, and to my engine as I've tested that. Air - how exactly do I test? I've never tested for air to the engine.

Wymple when when you say hot wire, just run a wire from the battery to the....ignition switch? Electrical isn't my strong suit. In fact, I down right hate it haha. I guess it couldn't hurt to just buy another cheapo multimeter, but I don't think I have a harbor freight around me unfortunately. Maybe I can just Amazon prime one. For the time being, Wymple, Roeme? Air? Hot wire?

 

[roeme]

Roeme you are correct with your inference, that's how I've tested the plugs. I get no spark whatsoever. I know that fuel is escaping my tank, through my petcock, and to my engine as I've tested that. Air - how exactly do I test? I've never tested for air to the engine.

Don't do everything at once, as said, be methodical. There's no point in chasing other stuff when you've confirmed that there's no spark.

"Air" is not to be understood literally, you'll always have air, it's the correct mixture of fuel and air that is needed. But don't occupy your mind with this now, do one thing at a time.

(...) Electrical isn't my strong suit. In fact, I down right hate it haha. I guess it couldn't hurt to just buy another cheapo multimeter, but I don't think I have a harbor freight around me unfortunately. Maybe I can just Amazon prime one. (...)

Stop hating it. It's really easy on these bikes, and your old bike wants and needs your attention in every aspect, not just the easy and fun ones.

When you get ahold of a multimeter, check the resistances of the primary and secondary winding of your coils. Since they're new, they should be good, but that way you'll also confirm that electricity can flow to the spark plugs.

 

[uk gs nut]

I notice in your first post your coils look to be just hanging loose on the bolts, you don't have a check nut to stop the coil moving about. Also a HOT wire is just a wire from positive terminal of battery to what ever, in this case to the live coil feed ORANGE. Do that and kick it over or bridge the 2 big terminals on solenoid and check for spark. With the coils loose they cold short out and plugs won't spark. Also your terminology is a little confusing, will not crank ?. Is the engine turning over or is it not ? when you push the start button.

 

[mike1414]

Stop hating it. It's really easy on these bikes, and your old bike wants and needs your attention in every aspect, not just the easy and fun ones.

Valid point, roeme. I need to learn to love it as I love working on the rest of it. So you're right! I just picked up a multimeter, and I'm gonna go do some diagnostic work. Also, I feel stupid in asking about the air, totally knew that. I will focus solely on the no-spark issue for now. Once I figure that out, if it still won't start, I'll move to the next step. But I have faith that solving my no spark will do the trick since it was running decently before.

HOT wire is just a wire from positive terminal of battery to what ever

Understood re: hot wire.

Also your terminology is a little confusing, will not crank

I didn't particularly know what terminology to use; when I say it "won't crank," it makes no noise whatsoever when I hit my electronic ignition. I say "crank" with regards to the deh,deh,deh,deh sound it should make when you hit the button, and "turn over" when the bike actually starts. I don't particularly know if that is right or not, just kind of the terminology I was raised using.

your coils look to be just hanging loose

My coils were loose that first picture just because I was in the process of changing them out. They're sured up now tight to the frame.

 

[mike1414]

So two things I figured out:

I have 5.2ohms to the primary side of both coils, but nothing from the secondary side on either coil. Also, hot wiring actually worked! It "cranked" (my terminology) although didn't start, likely because I need to clean the carbs since it has been sitting for about 3 months or so. Onto researching what to do next, input? Thanks roeme and uk gs nut for that help. You guys are geniuses.

 

[hannibal]

You ran a hot wire to the starter and it turned over? The only things between the battery and the starter are the relay, start button and kill switch (I think). Start by testing the relay by bridging the two terminals.

 

[Boriqua]

I am not sure this will help but back in the day I got stuck miles from home and had to be towed at night. It was sometime around "78 and I was broke and working a crap job and the trip cost me an entire paycheck. When I got home and started going through it all I discovered after I opened the kill switch that one of the solder points had broke lose. A single wire had come undone in the kill switch and I took out my 5 buck soldier iron and put it back on .. hit the switch and Vroom.

If you havent already .. open up the housing at your start switch and kill switch and just take a look.

 

[mike1414]

Hannibal I ran a wire from the positive battery terminal to the orange feeder wire to my coils and it started. Relative question: does a Dyna ignition work only with Dyna coils? I assume that since I fed power to the coils via my positive terminal and it started that must mean my coils are inadequate. Correct?

 

[hillsy]

Hannibal I ran a wire from the positive battery terminal to the orange feeder wire to my coils and it started. Relative question: does a Dyna ignition work only with Dyna coils? I assume that since I fed power to the coils via my positive terminal and it started that must mean my coils are inadequate. Correct?

What it means is your coils weren't getting power. You need to check the wiring to find out why.