Oil info from the "poll" section.

[The Kelzer]

Due to my amazement, many of you are STILL using auto oils in your precious bikes. Don't do that anymore OK?

Below is my post I put in the "Polls" section. As an Ex. Suzuki employee I felt the information is important enough that I thought I'd post it again here.

This is the very laymans version of why to use M/C specific oils........

I've sat in many (too many) hours of meetings with different oil formulators some huge (like Shell), others small (like Motul, Amsoil and Spectro). While I absorbed as much of the scientific details as possible, unless your an oil engineer, which I'm not, the best you can do is understand theory. So here is the basic theory,

In the old days, cars and motorcycles could share their oils hapily. First came catalytic converters. Then came fuel economy regulations and all of a sudden cars had certain economy numbers to meet and sulfur was deemed a catalyst destroyer ! Sulfer is a WONDERFUL lubricant and gear cushion in oils. So to compensate for the loss of sulfur and several key oil ingredients, Moly (a VERY slippery substance) and several other polymers were added. Now as a AUTO oil, these blends work GREAT! However, they were causing clutch slippage and other internal issues in motorcycle engines and gear cases. That was the beginning of M/C Specific oils.

The latest discussions were as of late, that the EPA and CAFE have stepped up their requirements for auto's to the point that we will in the very near future be seeing vehicle specific motor oils. Your new 2008 Honda Civic will HAVE to use Honda's (or whomever also meets that spec) specific oil.

Back to motorcycles.....

Motorcycles have several unique issues that are rarely thought of when Joe Schmo walks into his local Wal-Mart and buys his 99 cent quart of oil. They are this:

1: Wet Clutch- while your clutch may not be slipping now (especially on the lower Torque GS motors) The additives in Auto oil ARE affecting it. Some can get away with it...some cant. We had GSXR1000's with slipping clutches within 100 miles of normal usage after the owner put in Auto oil at his 1'st oil change...too save a few bucks....(cost him hundreds in the long run).

2: High RPM. Find me a auto engine that redlines above 10K and doesn't DEMAND a special oil. New 600's are reving to 17,500rpm STOCK!!!

3: Transmissions sharing oil with the motor. LOTS of sheering action here, synthetic oil is good to help prevent molecular chain sheering (viscosity break down). Cars use a specific tranny fluid. You wouldn't pour GL5 in your car engine now would you...??

4: and the least thought about.....Motorcycles are not typically not used everyday and tend to sit around accumulating moisture inside the motor. M/C oils have additives that allow the oil to coat the metal parts for longer periods of time while sitting (marine engines use ALOT of the additive because rust is such an issue)

So now that the API isn't catering to motorcycles anymore the Japanese motorcycle manufacturers joined up and formed JASO to discuss motorcycle specific lubrication issues. MA is their best rating (almost always a synthetic), MB is 2nd best (usually a dino oil). USE ONLY MA OR MB RATED JASO OILS FROM NOW ON.

Synthetics are better than Dino oils (we all know that right??) Use the best oil you can afford.

Suzuki oil is very good, Mobil 1 M/C oil is very good, their are MANY more oils that are very good...ELF, Motul, Redline, Harley Synthetic...etc Look for the JASO lable.

The testing Suzuki used to approve it's own oils is so severe, you will NEVER be able to duplicate it on the road or on the track, I don't care who you are.

Use M/C specific oils and quit being cheap.....the more they sell, the lower the cost will go. Like Plasma TV's !

I hope this helps.......and go easy on the Crisco. ;-)

Aloha,
Kelzer

 

[robinjo]

What about the problems with using synthetic oil and clutch slippage?

 

[83'GK]

Just some "other' thoughts on oils...

Sulfer is a WONDERFUL lubricant and gear cushion in oils.

It also, unfortunately, when mixed with moisture from the air, creates Sulphuric acid, which does wonders for corrosion.

The latest discussions were as of late, that the EPA and CAFE have stepped up their requirements for auto's to the point that we will in the very near future be seeing vehicle specific motor oils. Your new 2008 Honda Civic will HAVE to use Honda's (or whomever also meets that spec) specific oil.

Most of these oils are solely developed to ensure CAFE requirements are met for Fuel efficiency and pollution control in each vehicle. this is why most newer vehicles are spec'd' for 5w-20 oils in the USA and identical engines used outside the USA are spec'd' for heavier oils.

1: Wet Clutch- while your clutch may not be slipping now (especially on the lower Torque GS motors) The additives in Auto oil ARE affecting it. Some can get away with it...some cant. We had GSXR1000's with slipping clutches within 100 miles of normal usage after the owner put in Auto oil at his 1'st oil change...too save a few bucks....(cost him hundreds in the long run).

This is an ongoing debate. some effect the plates, others never have a problem

2: High RPM. Find me a auto engine that redlines above 10K and doesn't DEMAND a special oil. New 600's are revving to 17,500rpm STOCK!!!

and what are those engines specifying for oils? 10w-40 (insert Manufacturer name here)?

3: Transmissions sharing oil with the motor. LOTS of sheering action here, synthetic oil is good to help prevent molecular chain sheering (viscosity break down). Cars use a specific tranny fluid. You wouldn't pour GL5 in your car engine now would you...??

Some Ford and other Transmissions specified the use of standard OTC motor oil. The shearing will take place regardless of whether the oils are M/C specific or auto.

4: and the least thought about.....Motorcycles are not typically not used everyday and tend to sit around accumulating moisture inside the motor. M/C oils have additives that allow the oil to coat the metal parts for longer periods of time while sitting (marine engines use ALOT of the additive because rust is such an issue)

another reason to use low-sulpher oils. ANY oil with Esther's in the mix will 'cling' to engine parts.

So now that the API isn't catering to motorcycles anymore the Japanese motorcycle manufacturers joined up and formed JASO to discuss motorcycle specific lubrication issues. MA is their best rating (almost always a synthetic), MB is 2nd best (usually a dino oil). USE ONLY MA OR MB RATED JASO OILS FROM NOW ON.

JASO is another form of the society Of Automotive Engineers (SAE) Merely standards developed by manufacturers and Refiners.

Synthetics are better than Dino oils (we all know that right??) Use the best oil you can afford.

Suzuki oil is very good, Mobil 1 M/C oil is very good, their are MANY more oils that are very good...ELF, Motul, Redline, Harley Synthetic...etc Look for the JASO label.

Mobile 1 M/C oil is VERY close in additive formulation to the supersyn formula used in auto engines. Up until very recently, AMSOIL M/C oil was IDENTICAL to the 10w-40 Auto oils with one exception: a picture of a motorcycle on the cover.

Use M/C specific oils and quit being cheap.....the more they sell, the lower the cost will go. Like Plasma TV's !

I
Aloha,
Kelzer

I hate to say this, but this is a debate where you will get pro's and con's on both sides, and never a real agreement either way. They will use what has been successful to them in their bikes and probably won't change.

 

[The Kelzer]

I agree with you on your last sentance Tom but my point from the very begining was to explain in my professional opinion, gained from experience (25 years in the industry), severe duty scientific testing and proven fact why one should use motorcycle specific oils. Ignorance is bliss to many and if that works for someone than keep using whatever you use. Any oil is better than no oil. I don't sell oil, bikes or parts. I could care less what Wal-Mart brand you or anyone else uses.

I suppose I could also teach safe sex and be confronted with equal ignorant reasons why you shouldn't wear a condom, that's up to the individual person too. I was simply trying to arm fellow riders with knowledge.

Everyone should ask themselves this: Do you buy cheap IRC tires? They are round and black and roll well. Do you buy generic canned foods? Do you buy Generic toilet paper? You can do that and save money but I doubt you do. While like auto oil they all do as advertised, some are just better than others. It's a personal preference I guess.

Robin, Synthetic M/C oils create no clutch problems. Nor are there any break-in issues with synthetics. They are actually "factory-fill" on many vehicles now.

In everything mechanical I own is synthetic oils and I've never experienced any problems. Hell I just noticed my 4-stroke Ryobi weed eater/blower/edger/tiller/vac combo is now going on 6 years old and runs perfect with only Mobil 1 in it since new (3 oil changes).....and I use it at least 1 hour every weekend.

Hope this helps,
Kelzer

 

[Boondocks]

The Kelzer, I agree with the information that 83'GK has posted. Take a look at the post at Motorcycle Motor Oil and click on the link with the same name. The article was written by a person with expert oil knowledge and a highly qualified oil industry background.

I can also point you to other articles and research that all indicate that it is unnecessary to use "motorcycle oil".

 

[83'GK]

There have been issues with certain oils causing 'clutch slippage' due to certain ingredients in the additives, however, each bike is different, as are the various oils on the market. I have used several in mine, Mobil one, pennzoil, castrol GTX and Syntec, and currently run Rotella 15w-40 HDD. I have the origianl clutch in my 65000+ mile bike, with no issues ever excpet for a broken clutch cable. There have been several tests on various M/C oils, the two worst that repeatedly come to mind (for shearing, lack of additives per UOA ) are Golden Spectro and Honda factory fill. Sure you may save a $100 clutch, but toast a $1000 engine over the long haul.

 

[The Kelzer]

Boondocks,

You're right!! DAMN you caught me, I'm full of crap and don't know my butt from a hole in the ground....but the guy that wrote that OTHER article must be treated as though his word is gospel because he agreed with your limited point of view. Sounds like a wise decision.

FACT - Current auto oil doesn't work as good as current motorcycle oils in motorcycles. That is why we developed a motorcycle specific oil. 'Nuff said.

I've said all I can on the subject.

It's your bike.
Kelzer

 

[duaneage]

Do you buy cheap IRC tires? Kelzer

Actually yes I do and they work quite well. In addition to being the only company to make the correct size rear for my ride I find they handle well, last 5000 miles and work good in the rain. The Inohe Rubber Corporation is not a bad manufacturer.

Opinions are like noses, everybody has one and they all smell.

 

[83'GK]

Boondocks,

You're right!! DAMN you caught me, I'm full of crap and don't know my butt from a hole in the ground....but the guy that wrote that OTHER article must be treated as though his word is gospel because he agreed with your limited point of view. Sounds like a wise decision.

FACT - Current auto oil doesn't work as good as current motorcycle oils in motorcycles. That is why we developed a motorcycle specific oil. 'Nuff said.Kelzer

Must have caught us both! couldnt be because the motor oil companies saw the opportunity to market some crap so we would spend 3x as much on often mediocre oils with a motorcycle on the bottle.....

 

[Boondocks]

...In the old days, cars and motorcycles could share their oils hapily. First came catalytic converters. Then came fuel economy regulations and all of a sudden cars had certain economy numbers to meet and sulfur was deemed a catalyst destroyer ! Sulfer is a WONDERFUL lubricant and gear cushion in oils. So to compensate for the loss of sulfur and several key oil ingredients, Moly (a VERY slippery substance) and several other polymers were added. Now as a AUTO oil, these blends work GREAT! However, they were causing clutch slippage and other internal issues in motorcycle engines and gear cases. That was the beginning of M/C Specific oils.

However it's spelled, (sulfur/sulfer) sulphur is a contaminant in gasoline, diesel fuel, and motor oil. It may have some benefits in gear oil, but not motor oil. The sulphur that contaminates catalytic converters comes from the sulphur in low-grade gasoline, not motor oil. The lowest grades of motor oils have the highest sulphur concentrations, and the better grades refine the oil to the lowest sulphur levels possible. Only Group IV and V synthetics have no sulphur. You won't find sulphur spec'ed in any motor oil standard except as a maximum amount allowed, as it is an undesirable component. Crude oil with a high sulphur content is called "sour crude", i.e., undesirable. As 83'GK has mentioned, sulphur, air and water combine to produce sulphuric acid, which is the last thing you want in your engine. Additives in oil are specifically formulated to counteract the nasty tendencies of sulphur.

Automotive oils in the viscositiy range recommended for motorcycles, are not "Energy Conserving" formulations, and do not contain extra moly as the lower viscosity oil marked "Energy Conserving" may. Therefore, the "moly clutch slippage" argument regarding automotive oils is moot. In fact if you click on the link below for "Part 2: Laboratory and Dyno analysis", you will find, ironically enough that the average moly content in the "motorcycle oils" was higher than in the automotive oils.:-s

Boondocks,

You're right!! DAMN you caught me, I'm full of crap and don't know my butt from a hole in the ground....but the guy that wrote that OTHER article must be treated as though his word is gospel because he agreed with your limited point of view. Sounds like a wise decision....

I don't disagree with your self evaluation. I appreciate your candor.:-D The guy who wrote the OTHER article has expertise and knowledge in this field, and you don't. You admit to being a layman, and should have a layman's (mis)understanding.

...FACT - Current auto oil doesn't work as good as current motorcycle oils in motorcycles. That is why we developed a motorcycle specific oil. 'Nuff said.

I've said all I can on the subject.

It's your bike.
Kelzer

Not a fact. It is a fact that motorcycle oil development has been stopped at the API SH stage, which means that it is of lower quality than the latest API SL or SM grades. With no relabeling or product improvements required, this static development allows the packagers of motorcycle oil to maximize their profits.

Motorcyle oils are an accessory item that will work OK in motorcycles at an inflated price. They were developed primarily to make money and confound the gullible.

Aloha.

Part 1: What is motor oil really made of?
Part 2: Laboratory and Dyno analysis
Motorcycle Oils vs. Automotive Oils.
All About Oil
Motorcycle Motor Oil

 

[rustybronco]

3: Transmissions sharing oil with the motor. LOTS of sheering action here, synthetic oil is good to help prevent molecular chain sheering (viscosity break down). Cars use a specific tranny fluid. You wouldn't pour GL5 in your car engine now would you...??

in the Ford motor company line most manual transmissions now use a.t.f (gotta keep up the c.a.f.e. standards you know) not a gl5. and yes older ford transmissions and transfer cases used... MOTOR OIL.

 

[Boondocks]

Shear Luck? I Don't Think So.

Shear Luck? I Don't Think So.

In the service manual for my 1989 Honda Civic SI, the specifications for the 5 speed manual transmission call for 1.9 quarts of 10W-30 or 10W-40 motor oil only, to be changed every 30,000 miles. The transmission is still fine at 230,000 miles.

 

[Kaiser Sosei]

I'll chime in with another car that takes motor oil in the tranny. My MGB takes 20W50 in the transmission, same as the engine.

 

[dpep]

The Kelzer,

You would serve your argument much better my making references to testing and result from INDEPENDENT experts and organizations. That would be testing done by people who have no financial interest in the outcome of the tests. That would not be a study by testers in any way reliant for finances or future business upon entities involved in manufacturing and/or marketing motorcycle specific oil.

I would be quite interested in seeing such a study as I have yet to come across one in the half dozen motorcyle periodicals I have been reading every month for the last 30+ years; in fact, the opposite has been the case. In all such studies I have read the conclusion has been that while synthetic tends to offer advantages over dino, there is no meaningful distinction between automotive and motorcycle specific oils. In fact I have seen published results that that have some brands of motorcycle specific oil faring worse than most automobile oil in viscosity breakdown.

I have 130,000 miles on my 850 which I bought new in December of 1979. I have never used a drop of motorcycle specific oil in the 26 years. Most of those miles the bike held Mobil 1 automobile oil. I must admit that at times there was an excessive gap between oil changes and that at times I let it get dangerously low on oil. The bike was running good at 100,000 on the original set of rings when I had a rebuild done more or less as a reward to my trusty machine and to prepare it for the next 20 years and 100,000 miles.

Don't take personal offense at having your opinon questioned. GSR has a little sharper bunch than most motorcycle websites. You need to be prepared to defend your thesis in an objective and logical manner including links to documentation. If you are willing and able to do that you will receive the respect of the other members. Otherwise you would probably do best to avoid challenging statements and for godsakes stay out of the political threads.

 

[jimcor]

As an Ex. Suzuki employee I felt the information is important enough that I thought I'd post it again here.

So let's establish some street creds for you 'The Kelzer', just what did you do for Suzuki?

I worked for General Electric as a temp laborer in their glass lightbulb plant when I was between gigs many years ago. I don't tell anybody how to build jet engines, or what lubricant to use in them.

 

[JMHJ]

Nice marketing effort. I dislike deception though, and wasting money on things I don't need.

I've never used m/c-specific oil in my bikes, and I've never had a problem with a clutch or engine as a result (1,000s of miles). I've used semi-synthetic also, without a problem. I don't use STP, per the manual's prohibition, not that I would anyway in a clean, low-mileage engine.

Further, I change my oil based on how it looks, not by mileage or time. Hey, if it still looks clean and feels slippery, it must be good.

Finally, I don't buy the expensive brands. If I can eat Great Value (Wal Mart), my vehicles can too. I just make sure the oil I use meets the proper API rating (SH, SJ, or whatever it's up to now). Even the cheaper brand I use claims to meet or exceed new car maker's warranty requirements.

What brand/type of motor oil to use is one of those subjective things where opinions and stories abound. Specific personal results are more of a long-term issue, and not immediately available. Even then, those results may be mis-interpreted as being to the blame or praise of the particular oil used.

 

[The Kelzer]

Some of you people are very bizarre......

I worked in the accessory department for American Suzuki. That department was involved in many things including the development of various lubricants and additives. The motorcycle lubrication issues with automotive oils were thrust to the front of our agenda....it was that serious.

I stated I was not a oil scientist...but I consider myself much more than a "layman". I was simply trying to put my experience into terms most people in the forum could understand. Apparently, I failed.

As far as my experience goes I was a Product Development Technician and I was involved in several of the meetings with the oil scientists. We were not there to put a motorcycle picture on a car oil and charge double for it (Are you people really that cheap to begin with that price is more important than quality? C'mon now were talking a few bucks here!). We were there to solve very promenent issues regarding the latest auto oils and there negative effects in motorcycle engines/gear cases. The Factory had concerns that we needed to look at immediately and we did.

Now, I could continue to debate this fact until we are all blue in the face but there is one thing missing from most of your retorts on the subject, and that is the understanding that the NEW auto oils are not the same as the old ones. They have been modified extensively. Some of those tweeks are not condusive to motorcycle engines/transmissions. (The shop manual for my 2003 GSXR1000 states to use Suzuki Performance 4 Motor Oil OR an API SF or SG rated oils.....most new auto oils are SL.....so why specificaly state SF or SG ....a 4 generation older oil?? Because auto oils changed after that time frame and are no longer condusive to motorcycles. It's that simple.

While the car transmission analogy I used was brought up by several people, they too missed the point. Yes the tranny's in your ancient MGB requires motor oil (from that time period...and no wet clutch.), Your Honda civic may too (it doesn't have a wet clutch either.) etc etc... Not a single person said it was OK to put GL-5 in their motor because it's obviously a different type of lubricant proving not all lubricants are the same! Motor oils are different now. I think the fork oil in my old GS is supposed to be 10w-40 motor oil too. Well heck then, those fancy pants fork oil companies must be BS too then huh ? I bet Matt Mladin runs good ol'e Penzoil 10w-40 in his bike and forks! Hell, he's a 4 time champ, he must know what works and what doesn't then right.....Gyaawly.

As you all know Suzuki makes a WONDERFUL product and depends on it's reliabilty and performance to keep it's customers happy. If you don't agree with what I'm saying, that's fine. But don't tell me I'm wrong when I've seen the testing results from the Factory in Japan and have been in the discussions and you haven't.

As previously mentioned. I'm just trying to help.

It's your bike......and apparently your precious $25 bucks (or case of beer) is more important.

It's that simple.

Aloha,
Kelzer.

 

[Grandpa]

Some of you people are very bizarre......

Kelzer.

I agree.

I use motorcycle oil, Suzuki or Honda or Yamalube or Valvoline or whatever dino is available, for the reasons Kelzer stated. Maybe a waste of money, but I'm not willing to take that chance.

Kelzer, I agree with what dpep said about taking things personally. Don't. They're entitled to their bizarreness (if that's a word...) and I've learned it's not personal -- just bizarre.

 

[The Kelzer]

Thanks Grandpa, yours and several other peoples kind words allow me to keep the faith. As far as I'm concerned right now Bizarreness is DEFINITELY a word!

Keep riding,
Kelzer

 

[dpep]

As far as my experience goes I was a Product Development Technician and I was involved in several of the meetings with the oil scientists. We were not there to put a motorcycle picture on a car oil and charge double for it (Are you people really that cheap to begin with that price is more important than quality? C'mon now were talking a few bucks here!). We were there to solve very promenent issues regarding the latest auto oils and there negative effects in motorcycle engines/gear cases. The Factory had concerns that we needed to look at immediately and we did.

I assume the Suzuki scientists did some testing to determine that their product was actually superior to automobile formulations. Was any of it published? The problem here is that there is nothing in the public domain that supports the claims you make other than product advertising. If you know of any such studies, please point them out. I am eager to read them; this is a subject in which I have always had great interest. I have read every oil comparison I have ever come across, including those published in recent years since the introduction of energy conserving oils. The knowledge gained in that reading is what motivates me to use the oil I use. I do not pick an oil because it is the cheapest, but it sounds to me like you pick an oil because it is the most expensive. The objective research I have viewed tells me that the most expensive products in some cases do not lubricate as well as lower priced alternatives. The best way to protect your motorcycle is to be an intelligent consumer. Simply assuming that if something costs more it is better isn't very intelligent. One only need thumb through a few issues of Consumer Reports to be dissuaded of that belief.