Poltergeist in my wiring for Halloween!

[salty_monk]

Went for a ride today. Stopped for a coffee. About halfway through the coffee the bike switches itself on... headlight wakes up, oil light is lit, rear light is on. Key is in my pocket, ignition is off! I'd actually turned it off with the key to stop.

Right now all the key does is switch off the running lights in the 1100E turn signals I run. Everything else is live regardless of key position.
From memory I run those running lights off the brown accessory wire in the headlight bucket.

Weird! I haven't had a chance to dig in yet but I did pull the side cover and take a look at the fuseblock (I had something similar before where the fuse block had melted) but it's not there... I'm guessing it's in the ignition switch itself (although then why does it turn off the accessory circuit) or somewhere in the loom!

Anyone want to hazard a guess??

So that cut my coffee a bit short... I wanted to get home quick before the poltergeist got elsewhere!

When I got home the key wouldn't kill anything however the kill switch still works as normal!!

Old bikes! She's very polite though. Waited for me to finish putting the Husky back together before taking her break....

 

[alke46]

Now that is some weird sh!t right there. Makes me wish I had the electrical knowledge to just rip out all the wiring and re do it from scratch.

Good luck finding the culprit and do let us know what you find.

 

[tatu]

The 'live' is shorted to the 'switched' so that means Red is crossed with an Orange.
Try disconnecting the four pin plug from the ignition switch if that doesn't fix it, look for a place where those two colours could short. (Headstock area)?

 

[Buffalo Bill]

The 'live' is shorted to the 'switched' so that means Red is crossed with an Orange.
Try disconnecting the four pin plug from the ignition switch if that doesn't fix it, look for a place where those two colours could short. (Headstock area)?

Right, apart from crossed connections, it might be an area where the wire harness gets a lot of flex, rubbing, heat or overload.

 

[Redman]

Yah, all evidence points to the red circuit (main going to the switch) getting inadvertently connected somehow somewhere to the orange circuit (going back to head-signal-ignition fuses) , so it doesnt matter if the ignition switch does that or not.

I dont so much suspect the ignition switch itself.

But start with disconnecting the connector at the ignition switch, to see if the power turns off (I suspect not).
Inspect the connector and follow the harness from there. I suspect you are going to find a melted connector, deformed such that the red is touching the orange.
I might also suspect the fuse block, but you say you checked that already.

 

[Redman]

Other note:

The ignition switch function is to switch on-off the main power red to the orange circuit (back to Head & Signal & Ignition fuses). But that is not all it does.

The ignition switch also has another function, and that is to switch the signal circuit to the tail light (tag light only in some models) in the ON position, and to switch main power to the taill light (tag light in some) when in the Park position. So that is why you see some of the lights turn off in Off position.

 

[bonanzadave]

When I got home the key wouldn't kill anything however the kill switch still works as normal!!

Mine is doing that. I sprayed contact cleaner right into the key switch slot and it then worked but I think I have to go after the connector as suggested.....

 

[salty_monk]

Had a look in the headlight bucket... looks fine in there. Disconnected the ignition switch & started adding back fuses..... It's not in the ignition switch. Now to start the trace back from there. I suspect the wiring at the headstock too.... Thanks for the tip on red - orange, I thought that was the case but hadn't got that far.

I may actually take the opportunity to do some more wiring work. I run the RR direct back to the battery at the moment which I know is not best practice as the return current can make the fuse block run hot (if I understand Posplayr's info correctly). I do use a single point ground. Years ago when I had this problem due to the fuse box melting I re-soldered all the connections and then potted it with Epoxy.... It does look like it still gets somewhat toasty though.
Maybe a fuse block upgrade is in my near future along with moving that wiring over....

Anyone got any recommendations other than Eastern Beaver PC-8? The Fuzeblocks FZ1 is an option but I'd have to separate out the main fuse as it doesn't have a circuit with enough capacity for that..... Maybe I should have persevered with Posplayr's power cell a few years back!

 

[tatu]

Years ago when I had this problem due to the fuse box melting I re-soldered all the connections and then potted it with Epoxy.... It does look like it still gets somewhat toasty though.

Maybe this is related to your issue, something has high resistance somewhere and finally the insulation has broken down and caused a short..? None of my 1000 s' have ever had hot fuse box areas, my ones have only ever been the usual: 3 stator wire connectors, the main red wire connector that comes from the original R/R to the battery...often those connectors give trouble eventually as they sit in a good place that gets tyre water and spray. The installation of the SH775 fixed all that

 

[Guest]

... I run the RR direct back to the battery at the moment which I know is not best practice as the return current can make the fuse block run hot (if I understand Posplayr's info correctly). ...

It's not the 'return current' that makes the fuse block run hot. It's just plain CURRENT.

If you look at the wiring diagram, the R/R output is between the fuse block and the ignition switch. The bike takes what it needs via the ignition switch, any excess goes back through the fuse block to charge the battery. That "excess" might be 5-8 amps or so.

When you run the R/R to the battery, ALL the current to run the bike needs to go through the fusebox, not just the excess. The current to run the bike is usually about 10-12 amps (until you apply the brakes or turn on the turn signal or horn). Doesn't sound like much of an increase until you realize that it's 50-100% more than intended.

If you DO keep the R/R connected to the battery, you will need something larger than the stock 15 amp fuse in the MAIN position. Some put a 30 amp fuse, but the wires are not rated for that. I would not install larger than 20 amp fuse.

 

[salty_monk]

That makes more sense to me. Thanks for the explanation. I've got away with a 15amp fuse in that spot for years (at least a dozen of them) but it is that spot & that wire that show signs of getting hot for sure. I will change the way it's setup. Now I need to find a good spot to make the join.
Just so I'm understanding.... the join should be in the red wire (non switched +ve) after the output of the main fuse on the fuse block. I'll have a study of the diagram but I think that's right.

Trick or treating didn't allow for a lot more analysis yesterday but I did do a continuity test at the ignition switch connector going back into the main wiring loom between orange & red - No continuity (I think that means no short there which isn't what I expected) and I put a meter on the fuse block. I'm getting around 650 ohms resistance reading between the input & the output wires which can't be right... should be "1" infinite on my meter.

I started to unwrap some of the connectors and wires under the seat, all looks healthy under there so the next stop has to be somewhere under the tank or at the headstock I guess.

 

[salty_monk]

Well a bit more diagnosis & a test with a spare (slightly different as it's from a later 850G fuse box - thanks Rusty Tank) show that the fault is in the fusebox but a couple of the other bits of wiring / connections around that orange and red connection look a bit toasty too. I should have fitted that PMD from Posplayr a couple of years back!

I've ordered a PC-8 from Eastern Beaver to drop into it.

Quick question for anyone who's better at this stuff than me. I can't track the source of power to the Brown and grey lines. Looking at the wiring diag I'm assuming that they must pull power from the red wire and that the connection is made inside the ignition switch itself?

 

[salty_monk]

Well this is how I think I should install it... anyone want to comment?

[/url]Wiring-diag-colour-suzuki-gs1000-DG by salty_monk, on Flickr[/IMG]

 

[Redman]

About the brown and grey circuit:
I would say you need another schematic. THat is for 1000G and you are working on 1100E, right? Most things are common, but there are differences in the areas of the brown (tail light only) and gray circuits (instrument lights) since some bike have seperate tag light and some only have a tail light. (I dont know specifics of the E.)
And, yah, something thing that is suspect, looking at that schematic, the key in ON connects the grey to the brown but neither seem to have any sourse of power. Look at your schemeatic, up in upper left area, can see grey circuit going to instrument lights. On other G schematics I have, is also a grey line going down to the grey line to ignition swtich and tag light, dont see that on your scheamic, maybe just not a good copy or is missing by mistake.
What should be (on Gs anyway) is
- grey getting power from a jumper at the connector (at top of page left of center) from the org/grn circuit/fuse, and the grey goes to instrument lights (and tag light if is one) and ignition switch.
- And brown wire to tail light only (and maybe a spare connector up front) from the ignition swtich.
- Swtich in ON connects main fuse red to fuse block orange (to power head & ignition & Instrument fuse), ..... and with other contacts, connects instrument light grey to tail light brown to power the tail light with same as instruments.
- Swtich in PARK does nothing with orange and grey, and connects main red to tail brown to light the tail light with main power.

>>later note: didnt see waht are trying to do with relay (and need to step away)

 

[Gorminrider]

add Yes, what bike is this? You have turn signals from 1100E but your signature has a "1000E finished"

I can't track the source of power to the Brown and grey lines. Looking at the wiring diag I'm assuming that they must pull power from the red wire and that the connection is made inside the ignition switch itself?

No. power for lights is through the fusebox.
If you follow Orange/Red (O/R) in your diagram, you will see it connect to grey (Gr)above the long connector where yellow/white (Y/W) bifurcates...apparently, the path is therefore O/R->Y/W->Gr
Thereafter, the key does indeed switch it to brown (Br)

...but also, I think your coloured diagram may be obscuring connection "dot"s. which I don't like. It can be a problem because many wires cross without connecting in diagrams... I'm looking at the GS1000 shop manual black and white diagram too which doesn't enlarge very well and it's a little different.

I can't see your mod too clear to comment. Apparently it's "adult content on Flickr maybe because my filters are blocking a script.

 

[salty_monk]

Yeah it's for my skunk but I do have 1100E flashers fitted (the only difference is they have a running light in the front which the originals don't, I'm using the spare accessory brown that sits in the headlight bucket to power the running lights).

With the relay I'm basically taking the ignition switch out of all the fused circuits by using the original orange wire as a switch wire & pulling fused power to the relay from elsewhere. This should take ignition switch etc out of the loop which is where most voltage loss occurs..

Basically instead of a "relay mod" I'm doing an "all switched circuits mod".

Given that my fusebox has had issues from running RR back to battery +ve direct I want to emulate the stock wiring by putting it back in the supply to the switched loads. As stock it would be on the Red wire feeding the switch but that circuit now has virtually zero load as it's only switching the relay on pin 85. "Red - Ignition key- Orange - Pin 85"
I am assuming therefor that I have to attach the RR +ve to Pin 30 in the new diagram to share the load as it would as stock.

Otherwise it will only be "T"d into the switch wire power circuit (to the relay) rather than the circuit actually doing the powering.....

 

[salty_monk]

Hmm message too short. Lets see if you can see this...

 

[salty_monk]

A close up of just the modified section

 

[Gorminrider]

I can see the second mod section...the first diagram hasn't enough resolution. my opinion will probably not be wanted because I don't like small relays in crucial functions...even a larger relay: ie: A starting solenoid is an excellent rugged relay, but I would not leave it "on" to run the bike.("on" requiring an energized coil ) . I'd trust a clunky toggle switch much more, to switch red to orange near the fuse box or near the existing key switch.

In either case, you will still want to duplicate the lighting circuit that turns on the lights but that is pretty easy.

My fondness for toggle switches aside, I'm wondering if you can return to the core issue? the key switch?- and replace it or repair it...many do come apart. But I'll look back into the thread. I've probably lost the plot.

 

[salty_monk]

It's the fuse box I'm replacing not the key switch.... problem caused by overheating & seemingly causing a short - red to orange - (I can't see inside the fusebox case as I "potted" it with epoxy years ago when something similar happened).

I've been running a relay to switch the ignition coils on GS bikes for more than a dozen years (and 4 or 5 different GS's) and touch wood never had one go bad.... I always keep a spare tied up to the frame somewhere in case of failure along with some fuses.
Years ago I used to keep a 2" piece of wire with 2 spades on the end so worse case I could "hotwire" the coils using that as a jumper (pin 30 joined to pin 87). Not sure what happened to that... never needed it except for experimental purposes.

Modern bikes also basically do it too... my Husky has energized relays for the fuel pump, lighting and other ancillaries.