Removing starter, GS400EZ

[Runeight]

Want to remove starter on my 82 Euro GS400EZ. It?s been giving me some issues so I want to take a look see. Replace brushes and check the armature.

It appears to me that the cam chain adjuster assembly needs to be removed for clearance. The manual doesn?t state this however. I really don?t want to remove it but maybe I can swing it around a little. Just not enough room to clear the starter gear lifting the unit out.

At any rate I need your advice, tips or tricks please and TIA.

 

[earlfor]

I've not had a GSX400, but for an 82 GS450T, it is not necessary to remove the cam adjuster to be able to remove the starter.

 

[Gorminrider]

On myGSX400's( 81) YES Remove the tensioner. It's bad enough wrestling the starter out under the carbs (and the Tower Thing that tensions neutral detente)

It's no big deal except describing....and that it's hard to get at it's bolts with a clumsy tool..and of course you should be careful to undo the locknut, turn the setscrew in, and redo the locknut. This locks the shaft-that-pushes-on-the-camchain-tensionslide in place... Refer to manual to see how they remove tensioner if this isn't plain.


ONCE you get tensioner out, it's safe to play with and you will be it's master.

Oh, and per the starter, the cavity it sits in has a mystery hole where small things can fall into ....it's some kind of drain but things of a certain size can get stuck in it apparently.

 

[Runeight]

Thank you! Sure looks like it has to be removed to me. I?ll do some reading as you suggested. Want to check the armurture and replace brushes. Going to check the relay also.

I put a fresh battery in it and it wouldn?t crank. Sounded like a dead battery. I pondered a bit, took the cover off. Hit the starter and it cranked and fired although it?s a noisy thing. Doesn?t sound right to me and it should crank much faster than it does now.

Anyone else, please chime in with tips.

 

[Runeight]

Did some reading and have a few questions.

-loosen locknut, tighten screw to hold adjuster rod in place, snug locknut.
-remove adjuster assembly.

Now, would you turn the motor over until no resistance is felt? The spot between TDC.

No mention of this in my manual which leads one to believe it doesn?t matter since there is constant tension on the cam chain.

What was interesting is the fact you never touch the black knob on the right for tension. It ratchets on its own. One would assume you adjust here but not the case. Learn everyday.

If anyone knows of a good shop to turn armature let me know. Not sure of condition but the bike only has 11500 kilometers on it. Plan on tear down tomorrow, just lining up my ducks in a row.

 

[chuck hahn]

No on turning the engine over. Lock down the rod as described with the slotted rod and jam nut. Remove the tensioner and under no circumstances let that engine even twitch. Remove the starter and do the work.

To reinstall the tensioner... First undo the jam nut and loosen the adjuster screw. Push the tensioner rod all the way in by leaning on the back of the assembly and lock down the adjuster screw and jam nut thus holding the tensioner rod fully compressed. Install the tensioner and loosen the jam nut and adjuster so the tensioner rod goes ahead and reapplies tension to the cam chain.

Adjustment for the tensioner.. Once its back in, turn the adjustment screw in till it touches the tensioner rod. Turn screw out 1/4 turn and lock in place with the jam nut.

To "resurface" the armature just wrap it in some 1200 wet dry and spin it to polish up the contacts. Clean the carbon from in between the contacts..down in the recesses between them. Clean everything with contact cleaner and lube the bushings. Add the new brushes and reassemble the unit.

EDIT. Lots of compressed air to blow crap out of the windings too.

 

[Runeight]

Thanks Chuck. What I meant was before removing tensioner assembly or loosening jam nut.

OK, got it. Thank you for the detailed instructions. Appreciated.

Here we go...

 

[Gorminrider]

Now, would you turn the motor over[before removing tensioner] until no resistance is felt? The spot between TDC.

No mention of this in my manual which leads one to believe it doesn’t matter since there is constant tension on the cam chain.

I don't but what you say is not a bad idea. But as Chuck sez, generally, "do not spin the engine without the tensioner in place"..Plainly there's a possibility of someone doing this when they are futzing with a starter.....oh, a little motion won't matter but you don't want the cam chain to skip .

Once the assemblage is out, you can loosen the set screw, turn the big spring knob and push the tensioner stem back in a little and relock it . The set screw is locking against a flat spot on tensioner stem...and that is why Chuck is saying per "a quarter turn" . This "flat spot" helps the set screw hold instead of trying to do so on a curved surface and, INCIDENTALLY that "quarter turn" limits how far the stem can go into the engine by keeping it on the flat indent...AND it makes sure there's no way the stem can rotate too...

After putting it back in engine, when you release the set screw that 1/4 or so turn, the stem goes forward...if you like, you can gently rotate the engine with the big knob turned ....

Extra Interesting? a mechanic I know HATES these auto-adjusters and makes them into manual ones by tweaking the BigKnob gently for "quietest operation" and then locking with the set screw. So, if you get hot on a "Manual Cam Chain Adjuster", be aware, you already can have one.

 

[Steve]

Once the assemblage is out, you can loosen the set screw, turn the big spring knob and push the tensioner stem back in a little and relock it . The set screw is locking against a flat spot on tensioner stem...and that is why Chuck is saying per "a quarter turn" . This "flat spot" helps the set screw hold instead of trying to do so on a curved surface and, INCIDENTALLY that "quarter turn" limits how far the stem can go into the engine by keeping it on the flat indent...AND it makes sure there's no way the stem can rotate too ...

Another reason that flat is there is to limit the travel of the plunger. If you loosen the setscrew more than 3/4 turn, it will be out, past the flat, allowing the plunger to keep going. By backing off 1/4 to 1/2 turn, you assure the plunger has clearance to move, but will be restrained from moving too much.

Extra Interesting? a mechanic I know HATES these auto-adjusters and makes them into manual ones by tweaking the BigKnob gently for "quietest operation" and then locking with the set screw. So, if you get hot on a "Manual Cam Chain Adjuster", be aware, you already can have one.

A rather interesting technique, to be sure. :-k

I say that because the knob only controls the "anti-reverse" feature that allows the plunger to move in, but not out. You can turn the knob in one direction to release the mechanism (necessary to retract the plunger to insert the tensioner), but that only allows the plunger to back off. Turning it in the other direction really does not increase any push on the chain. That is pretty much done with the spring inside the tensioner.

I have heard many pros and cons of the auto-adjust tensioner. Most of the cons come from racers and/or builders of high-performance engines. In those cases, there might be a bit of extra force applied to the chain that might wedge the tensioner into place, preventing it from doing it's job. However, those types of people are also the ones that are a bit more finicky about their maintenance and are more likely to check/re-adjust cam chain tension on a regular basis.

For most of the rest of us (with mostly stock engines), the stock auto-tensioner does a FINE job and is just one less thing to worry about. :encouragement:

.

 

[Runeight]

Thanks guys..

i also read read in the manual that once the tensioner is installed and lock nut adjusted you rotate the engine backwards thus allowing proper tension. You will see the black knob rotate.

After that it?s all done.

 

[chuck hahn]

Only a tiny bit..just enough to take the slack out from between the cam sprockets. Probably not more than 1/4 turn of the 19MM nut under the timing plate cover.

 

[Guest]

I don't but what you say is not a bad idea. But as Chuck sez, generally, "do not spin the engine without the tensioner in place"..Plainly there's a possibility of someone doing this when they are futzing with a starter.....oh, a little motion won't matter but you don't want the cam chain to skip .

Once the assemblage is out, you can loosen the set screw, turn the big spring knob and push the tensioner stem back in a little and relock it . The set screw is locking against a flat spot on tensioner stem...and that is why Chuck is saying per "a quarter turn" . This "flat spot" helps the set screw hold instead of trying to do so on a curved surface and, INCIDENTALLY that "quarter turn" limits how far the stem can go into the engine by keeping it on the flat indent...AND it makes sure there's no way the stem can rotate too...

After putting it back in engine, when you release the set screw that 1/4 or so turn, the stem goes forward...if you like, you can gently rotate the engine with the big knob turned ....

Extra Interesting? a mechanic I know HATES these auto-adjusters and makes them into manual ones by tweaking the BigKnob gently for "quietest operation" and then locking with the set screw. So, if you get hot on a "Manual Cam Chain Adjuster", be aware, you already can have one.

The stock tensioner is a two way device; it compensates for thermal expansion. The ratchet mechanism that replaced it is a disaster as it sets itself when cold and is overtight when the motor expands.

Yamaha had a clever fixed tensioner [XT225] that had a spring and plunger doohickey that you set so the plunger was flush when the motor was cold. There was enough throw that the tensioner slack was gone when the block had expanded. Of course setting it required reading the manual, so they replaced it with a ratchet and doomed the cam bearings and guides.

When the car industry decided to go to timing chains instead of belts, many designs used the same lame POS that the bike industry did and ended up with more trouble than the belt replacement was - see Honda, VW, et al. Subaru uses a hydraulic; bravo. Yes, you can design enough spring in the guides to get away with [how long is that warranty?] cold tensioning, but it's still crude.

If you want to lock your tensioner, do it when and while your motor is fully hot. Of course, it will then be somewhat loose when cold. But then, so are your pistons.

 

[Gorminrider]

^^^always interesting stuff you come up with,JohnPark!

from Steve

A rather interesting technique, to be sure. :-k

Yes, he says he does it by sound and feel......and that he will do the same tuning a manual adjuster but he's got a LotOfOldBikes going across his bench and I suppose he gets pretty quick on which needs what without puzzling over a single paragraph in Haynes like I am wont to do!

 

[Guest]

^^^always interesting stuff you come up with,JohnPark!

from Steve

Yes, he says he does it by sound and feel......and that he will do the same tuning a manual adjuster but he's got a LotOfOldBikes going across his bench and I suppose he gets pretty quick on which needs what without puzzling over a single paragraph in Haynes like I am wont to do!

The question is how does it sound and feel to the guides and cam bearings wide open up a hill at 7000rpm on a hot day......

 

[Runeight]

Hey guys, wanted to report in. Thanks for the tips, everything went smooth on removal. Upon disassembly of the starter I found that more parts are in order. Had to order up a new brush plate.

As you can see things were a mess. Everything cleaned and ready for parts.

pic one...

 

[Runeight]

Armature pretty bad also. Cleaned up with 1500 grit.

 

[Gorminrider]

Had to order up a new brush plate.

How much$ for the brush plate? I have a worn one too but I've not yet gone for the whole plate figuring I'd really just like to replace the brushes though indeed they are a little tricky in these particular starters and I can see why you'd go for the set.....

Armature pretty bad also

you mean commutator worn? or armature thrashed? the latter would be labour intensive for sure -I can sometimes get away with resurfacing commutator but I guess at some point a whole new starter is the way to go...

 

[Runeight]

The brush backing plate has another brush permanently attached. The parts diagram wasn’t very clear thus I missed it. Can’t replace one and not the other.

The armature cleaned up nicely with 1500 grit cut to the width of the armature. This avoids damaging the seal which is back ordered anyway. Brush plate was $41.00 US. New starter is over $400 US.

Usually I disassemble before ordering but family issues has me diverted on occasion.

 

[Gorminrider]

Roger that. $41 is about the norm.. meanwhile I got "excited" (subtle electric joke) and found these brushes

(20 Canadian$) https://www.ebay.ca/itm/263426472231 ...haven't pulled trigger as I'll have to dig that plate out and see if it's worth it...I recall that there's little tabs that would need to be unbent to install these wire ends?? and possibly would break 'em...

 

[Runeight]

Save yourself the headache and order the plate not to mention cut fingers prying on the tabs.