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ashdricky
Guest
Thanks Greg I am in the process of assembling what you just described,
The GSXR clutch is possibly 24mm taller than the gs clutch so Im not entirely sure how I will fit everything
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Thanks Greg I am in the process of assembling what you just described,
The GSXR clutch is possibly 24mm taller than the gs clutch so Im not entirely sure how I will fit everything
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ashdricky
Guest
So I have assembled the parts as suggested, ant there are several issues that I came across;
1) The gsxr clutch has 8 friction discs whereas the 550 only has 7, which would require an additional set of friction plates to be purchased so the gap can be closed.
2) Eventually when the plates and friction discs wear down it will cost 3x what a usual replacement dose as a gsxr plate set is required in addition to the two gs sets.
3) The metal discs from the gsxr clutch only make contact with 50% of the surface area of the 550 friction plates.
4) The slipper mechanism prevents the inner portion of the clutch from resting properly within the basket.
What if i Swap the drive gears and can align the gsxr clutch correctly?
1) The gsxr clutch has 8 friction discs whereas the 550 only has 7, which would require an additional set of friction plates to be purchased so the gap can be closed.
2) Eventually when the plates and friction discs wear down it will cost 3x what a usual replacement dose as a gsxr plate set is required in addition to the two gs sets.
3) The metal discs from the gsxr clutch only make contact with 50% of the surface area of the 550 friction plates.
4) The slipper mechanism prevents the inner portion of the clutch from resting properly within the basket.
What if i Swap the drive gears and can align the gsxr clutch correctly?
The simplest solution is to make the GSXR center fit in the 550 basket - Can you post a pic of the two centers side by side so we can see the length difference please.
It may be possible to simply machine back the outer edge of the GSXR center hub.
A pic of the 2 types of steel plate would let us know where the diameter difference is too.
Thanks
It may be possible to simply machine back the outer edge of the GSXR center hub.
A pic of the 2 types of steel plate would let us know where the diameter difference is too.
Thanks
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ashdricky
Guest
I am watching a friend's house for the weekend, Ill take those photos as soon as I can get back home. hopefully Monday.
I'd remove the aluminum basket assembly from both hubs (need to grind off the rivets and punch them free). Next you need to figure out how to get the GSXR basket mounted to the 550 gear.
Good luck figuring out how to get the clutch cover back on with that tall hub. The drag racer guys machine a spacer when they install certain types of tall clutches. Seems that something similar is in order here.
Good luck figuring out how to get the clutch cover back on with that tall hub. The drag racer guys machine a spacer when they install certain types of tall clutches. Seems that something similar is in order here.
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ashdricky
Guest
Ive come up with a solution for the tall clutch, I would mill a circular recess 26mm larger than the diameter of the gsxr basket in the clutch cover, making sure it is centered properly with the clutch axis. Then mill through the cover creating an opening 6mm larger than the clutch. Now I would have a "shoulder of 10mm on each side and then a gap of 3mm between the clutch and the cover as it continues through the cover into now open space. (I think this is the simplest way as I need to retain the kick start, therefore cannot easily move the entire cover out ~50mm) then I would mill an aluminum cover to fit over the opening and use the 10mm shoulder to mount the cover. Greg what do you feel about this idea rather than the hybrid clutch? I was thinking the gsxr clutch assembly is more developed and probably more robust than the 550 unit, which I will need when we start looking into developing power.
Here are the two hubs side by side to give a perspective of the height difference.
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ashdricky
Guest
so after several hours of working with the machinist, we came to the conclusion that a custom basket had to be machined, almost identical to the gsxr basket, but with the correct dimensions to accept the 550 drive gear and springs.
It's difficult to make any judgement without the parts in hand...
As far as the 550 clutch goes, it's over engineered for the std output and I'm pretty sure it would accept up to 90 plus HP. The GSXR clutch has a couple more plates and will we know accept over 120hp...
The GS1000 clutch - which I am intimately familiar with - will take well over 130hp in pretty much std form...better springs of course. The 550 isn't much smaller.
My own first instinct would be to try and mod the OE center to accept the slipper bits but without handling it....I just don't know.
Is your machinist worried about the thickness of the OE hub after machining ?
The whole "new basket" scenario is potentially difficult too. If you can use the GSXR basket on the 550 primary gear, that's probably the least work.
Spacing the cover out is the least of the problems.
As an aside, I understand there's a remit going forward here in NZ banning slipper clutches in our Vintage racing....
As far as the 550 clutch goes, it's over engineered for the std output and I'm pretty sure it would accept up to 90 plus HP. The GSXR clutch has a couple more plates and will we know accept over 120hp...
The GS1000 clutch - which I am intimately familiar with - will take well over 130hp in pretty much std form...better springs of course. The 550 isn't much smaller.
My own first instinct would be to try and mod the OE center to accept the slipper bits but without handling it....I just don't know.
Is your machinist worried about the thickness of the OE hub after machining ?
The whole "new basket" scenario is potentially difficult too. If you can use the GSXR basket on the 550 primary gear, that's probably the least work.
Spacing the cover out is the least of the problems.
As an aside, I understand there's a remit going forward here in NZ banning slipper clutches in our Vintage racing....
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ashdricky
Guest
We removed the primary gears from both baskets with the idea that we would fit the 550 gear to the gsxr basket, we got hung up when it came to the spring configuration, which is radically different.
Ill be sure to take photos when I get home.
the thought of doing all of this just to be banned from competition makes me ? the project, but for now we will continue to move forward.
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ashdricky
Guest
I just had a thought, what would be the results of an unsprung clutch? what if I just fastened the 550 primary drive gear to the gsxr basket without dampening springs? Clearly the clutch would behave in an abrupt manner, but would it be to the point that the bike is unrideable? We are also running a quick shifter and will not use the clutch on upshifts over 7000 rpm.
That is do-able...the clutch will not change it's characteristics (feel) but the box will see higher impact loads at changes. There should still be a shock absorber in the line - the rear cush drive.
Given that the bigger GS's are known to collapse the clutch cush springs after abuse - the drag race guys will confirm this - and the resulting slop puts more impact load on the box than a solid drive - and the box generally survives this, I don't think you'll have a problem.
Our roadrace 1000 is running what is for most purposes a solid clutch cush.The guy who modified it originally had it in a turbo'd 1000 which dynoed around 170 at the wheel. Unblown we'll never break it and the clutch feels fine.
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ashdricky
Guest
Yes initially that is how we kept motivated, "we've got to do this because the competition is most certainly doing something devious.", the imminent clash with evil. I have since realized that I have nothing to prove to them as last I saw his machine I thought he was quite brave to ride it in the condition it was, also I doubt I could have persuaded him to take it to a track. Odd that you remember that.
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I have a mind like a steel trap...it's just a little rusty!initially that is how I kept motivated "we've got to do this because the competition is most certainly doing something devious.", an imminent clash sometime in the future, I have since realized that I have nothing to prove to that guy. lat time I saw his machine I thought he was quite brave to ride it in the condition it was, also I doubt I could have persuaded him to take it to a track. and in fact have not spoke with him in nearly a year. Odd that you remember that.
If only I had learned to use it to best advantage earlier in life
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ashdricky
Guest
here are photos of where I am now, I am trying to find the best way to bolt the drive gear to the basket, as we will not be using dampening springs.
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ashdricky
Guest
Im sorry what do you mean by pitch angle?
Dogma
Forum Sage
"Pitch circle" is a theoretical circle on which nominal features lie. On a gear, this is the circle where gear teeth make nominal contact. On a bolt circle, this is the circle through which a group of bolt centerlines pass. In this context, I think it means where the spring pockets and bolt holes are. GregT is asking if anything lines up between gear and basket.
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ashdricky
Guest
Ahh thank you for the explanation, the answer is not at all. but I thought of possible using this solution, which was used to fit a gsxr clutch to a tl1000. The user that took these photos and created the original goes my the name of Manurewa, he is on the TL and GSXR forums, I believe he is fron New Zealand, but may be wrong.
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Yes, Dogma got it right...The Kiwi who did that clutch conversion had way too much time and CNC machining available to him....
The shaped insert answer like he used - but simpler shapes - is probably the way to go. Aluminium inserts for the gear bored to match the pitch circle diameter of the 3 basket retaining fasteners should be do-able.
You're dealing with a lot less torque and horsepower than the TL so three 10mm retaining bolts will be adequate IMO. You may want to look at Button head or even countersunk head fasteners as room at the back of the gear will be limited. If you use the original steel back plate from the 550 gear and redrill for the new hole location, after assembly the bolt/screw heads can be spot welded (TIG) in place for security.
The shaped insert answer like he used - but simpler shapes - is probably the way to go. Aluminium inserts for the gear bored to match the pitch circle diameter of the 3 basket retaining fasteners should be do-able.
You're dealing with a lot less torque and horsepower than the TL so three 10mm retaining bolts will be adequate IMO. You may want to look at Button head or even countersunk head fasteners as room at the back of the gear will be limited. If you use the original steel back plate from the 550 gear and redrill for the new hole location, after assembly the bolt/screw heads can be spot welded (TIG) in place for security.
