Starting a long dormant engine.

[spyug]

Well I had to give up for tonight as I had the carbs off and couldn't get them back on. I usually heat up the boots with my paint stripper gun....but it broke and I didn't want to force things and maybe rip em. I tried to "borrow" the wife's hairdryer but the evil look I got convinced me otherwiseAs luck would have it, our Crappy Tire Stores have them on this week for $9 so I know where I'll be first thing tomorrow.

With the battery charged again and tight clean connections from solenoid to starter it spins much faster. I'm thinking this might help and as the carbs are off again, I'll pull them apart again tomorrow to double check the innards.

Don't know why but I'm feeling a tad more positive. Boy the old emotions are having a workout this week.

Stay tuned.

Spyug

 

[duaneage]

swap carbs for the set from the other bike. Put everything else back to what it was before this began. Too many things change and before you know it you've lost the rabbit.

 

[Ponderosa]

O2

O2

Ignition, O2, fuel, remember you need O2 for ignition also, this is the reason for my previous post of flushing cylinders with compressed air blocking throttle slide open a tad, and cracking throttle while cranking.

 

[Guest]

He has another set of wallet drainers, I would give it a go.

At this stage in the game so would I.

 

[waterman]

I would try to assist the battery with a set of jumpers from a larger battery. The KLX I bought had been sitting for at least a couple of years, and after a thorough carb cleaning and new, charged battery, it just wouldn't fire. Battery would in short time start to fade. Once I hooked up to a bigger battery off of lawn tractor (not running of course), motorcycle engine would spin faster and start to puff to life. After some fiddling with carb and steady throttle hand, the engine ran long enough to finally idle. Then the new battery would have enough juice to start it.

I also noticed that the idle adjustment on most dormant engines are not set correctly. This can make the starting circuit in operative, by not creating enough vacuum past butterflies to pull the richer fuel mix through the small ports. Typically the throttles are open too much, may want to check where they are set, mine are practically shut completely at idle. Or they may be shut too far.

I am grasping at straws here, but maybe these ideas will help. Don't give up, you are close.

 

[spyug]

Thanks Waterman that's a good suggestion. I have a real powerful deep cycle marine battery that might help.

I was surprised how much faster it spins with everything cleaned up and tightened down even. As it still might take a bit of cranking to get things chugging a booster battery would be quite helpful and I better make sure it is good and charged.

I picked up a new heat gun at lunchtime and will soften up the boots to get those carbs back on. I'm thinking that as the engine wasn't spinning fast enough, it wasn't making enough vacuum to pull the gas. In this kind of case, something could be said for an accelerator pump for the carbs I guess.

Well things seem to be looking up for a "main engine start" and lift off after supper.

Stay tuned.

Cheers all,
Spyug

 

[Guest]

Once I hooked up to a bigger battery off of lawn tractor (not running of course), motorcycle engine would spin faster and start to puff

I thought he may give a jump start from a vehicle also.
On a side note, why as I've heard before should that vehicle not be running?

 

[spyug]

As I've been told a running vehicle's charging system can overwhelm the battery and electrical system of the bike easily knocking out ignitors, pick-ups, R/rs and anything else connected to the harness. Over on the Xs site a fella fried the whole bike and actually started a fire when the insulation started to melt.

I'll stick with the boat battery.

Cheers,
Spyug

I'm going out to the man room now to start up the heaters so she can be warm and tasty fotr an easy start.

 

[Guest]

Not trying to argue that point but I cant ever recall attempting to jump start a bike without the "jumpee" runing.
Perhaps I shouldnt do it anymore, lol.

It really boggles me as to why your bike wont even make a sound or a puff, nothing.
Did you ever get around to checking the compression?

 

[Guest]

I also noticed that the idle adjustment on most dormant engines are not set correctly. This can make the starting circuit in operative, by not creating enough vacuum past butterflies to pull the richer fuel mix through the small ports. Typically the throttles are open too much, may want to check where they are set, mine are practically shut completely at idle. Or they may be shut too far.

I am grasping at straws here, but maybe these ideas will help. Don't give up, you are close.

I think waterman has a very good point here...

Before you put the carbs back on, verify your bench sync & make sure you leave the butterflies open a little. I typically turn the idle adjustment screw about 2 -3 turns from closed. Be ready with the kill switch if it starts & immediately heads for the moon!

Without the airbox I still think you need to at least cover the carb intakes with a cloth, perhaps held on by a rubber band.

If it doesn't start, try squirting a little gas into each clyinder, either through the plug holes, or into the vac sync ports.

Sorry if these are redundant suggestions - trying to keep it simple.
Good luck, we're all pulling for ya!!!

 

[bradleymaynar]

I've read through this and the one thing that keeps popping into mind is that you might as well drop the extra $ on a new battery. Cold can be a battery killer. I know I have the tendency to over complicate simple problems when things aren't working when they should. Had an issue with my pick up a month ago and thought the anti-theft was causing issues. Instead it was a dead cell on the battery.

Just a question as to what happens when you crank the motor. Do the lights and such dim a lot when you push the starter button?

Brad bk

 

[spyug]

Thanks for all the support guys I appreciate it and its all that's keeping me going.

I'm sad to report that while it cranks faster there is still no combustion even with a good shot of gas directly into the cylinder or even with a good squirt of starter fluid.

I have even tried the carbs from my GS which have run flawlessly for 2 years or more.

I don't have any lights hooked up but there is a slight dimming to the neutral light on the dash. It cranks away quite happily for 3 or 4 minutes before it slows ( but keeps turning). Voltage drops to about 12.3 volts at this point. The battery seems ok but I suppose it could be deteriorating as it is 2 to 3 years old.

I didn't add the boat battery as I forgot to put a charge on it (I have it on now) but I can try that tomorrow.

At this point, I'm really running out of things to try. It completely baffles me that I can't get even a peep out of it. Any other engine that I've worked on and wouldn't start normally always at least coughed with a shot of ether.

I must admit that I've gotten sidetracked on the compression testing so I really must get on that tomorrow as well. Mind you I really can't see that as an issue. When I had the head off (but freed up the pistons) oil that I poured into each cylinder sat for over a week without dripping away. I didn't look at all the valves but the ones I pulled were clean and the seats smooth and unpitted. No guarantee of course but a good sign.

Well I'll try again a bit later but I'm losing my enthusiasm now. I should maybe leave it for a few days and see if anything else pops into my mind to test.

Weird...just really weird.

Cheers all,
Spyug

 

[almarconi]

Air is not a good conductor of electricity. In the atmosphere, a spark of 12,000 volts can jump a gap of .025?. Under pressure, like in a cylinder, it is harder for the spark to jump the gap. The pressure inside the cylinder of a two-cycle engine, like a chainsaw, outboard, and simple snowmachine, is about seven times greater than our atmosphere.

A spark plug that can spark in the open air may not be sparking at all in the cylinder. It took me three days to learn this as I cranked and cranked on a motorcycle.

The strength of the spark is revealed in the color. A red or yellow spark is weak and probably will not spark in the cylinder. A blue or white spark is strong and has enough voltage to fight across the spark plug gap even under pressure within the cylinder.

Could this be happening in your engine?

 

[duaneage]

Time for the compression gauges. If off by one tooth it won't start, experience taught me that and a compression check revealed it to me.

We've eliminated the carbs ( as long as they filled with gas from the tank) so we are left with ignition or engine timing.

I'm leaning towards ignition too at this point since the engine seems to be timed correctly. Send 12 volts right to the coils on the orange leads and try it again.

You could be brave and bring parts over from your other bike, they should be compatible. Just don't break both.

 

[KitKat]

have you checked your starter gear and starter clutch? are they engaging / working properly?

got a hill nearby? have u attempted a bump start?

 

[DMorris]

Sure sounds more and more like compression problem.
You have checked timing and have squirted fuel and ether into the cylinders. You have checked that there is a spark. As was mentioned earlier, the formula is fuel/air, spark at the right time and compression.
Is there any chance the head is not seated? Even with starting fluid, some compression is needed to get a reliable 'pop'.
I would think that if the head was too far out of place, you would hear the weezing of air from between the head and cylinder upon cranking the motor but maybe not. Time to break out the compression gauge if you want to put numbers to it but if you place your finger over the plug hole while cranking, you should feel the push of air past your finger. If you put the palm of your hand over the intake manifold, you should feel suction pulses while cranking.

Don't give up; you will find it sooner or later.
I'm waiting to hear just what the hell is going on.

Good luck!

 

[spyug]

Well guys this is truly bonkers.

I got the boat battery charged and I connected it to the bike battery. Lots of juice and it cranked like a banshee. Easily twice the speed of my GS. Tried each of my 3 sets of carbs, shots of gas to the cylinders, shots of ether to the cylinders. Pulled all of the plugs and they're sparking blue, blue/white. Choke on, choke off, no throttle, throttle....tried every combination. Absolutely no indication of combustion. Not a peep, burp or bang. Nothing.

All that is left is to check the compression so thats first on the agenda tomorrow.

I'm now almost at the point of trying my spare engine. It looks rougher than this one and likely has more mileage but with about 30+ hours trying to get this one going I'm thinking I'm beating a dead horse.

We'll see what compression comes up and that may help a decision.

Stay tuned for tomorrows edition of "How the Kat Motor Turns but Doesn't Fire".

Cheers guys,
Spyug

 

[KitKat]

have you checked your starting gear and starter clutch yet?

 

[spyug]

newGS300Lowner, I'm not following your question. As I've mentioned a few times, the engine turns freely and quite smartly with the second battery in position so there is no problem with the starter setup.

I think its down to compression or timing is slightly off ( although it looks smack on). I will confirm the compression numbers tomorrow but the finger test tells me there is pressure build up in each cylinder so I'm sceptical but I've been wrong many times before.

There is something simple and likely stupid going on here I just wish I could crack it before it drives me totally bonkers.

Cheers guys,
Spyug

 

[KitKat]

here:

Question
I have a 1993 virago 535 and the starter just spins. I purchased a rebuilt starter and it did the same thing. I opened the side cover to look at the gears. Everthing looked normal, but what I saw was the starter clutch outer assembly looked to be cracked in half. 1)would this cause the starter to just spin? 2)If so, how do I remove the rotor assembly and then the starter clutch assembly? Thank you, Bill.

Q: "...the starter clutch outer assembly looked to be cracked in half. 1)would this cause the starter to just spin?

A: Yes

http://users.metro2000.net/~cdc/magna/tech section and issues/starter clutch/starter clutch.htm

that website has some good information. I understand that certain bikes have repetitious problems with starter clutches, but maybe on your long dormant engine, something got "jilted" and i was thinking it was the reason you were just spinning without any combustion