Valve adjustment - major screw up?

[oldgsfan]

OK, so how big a problem is it to rotate the cams with a shim removed? I am adjusting my valves for the first time and after checking the clearances saw that four were pretty tight. So I had removed the shim from the #1 intake valve, which I was going to replace.

Well, since I was going to replace it, I didn't re-install it. My plan was to remove the others that I had to replace, and then just install the correct size shims.

In my readings I didn't see anything saying you couldn't do this, but now I'm thinking maybe I just made a major screw up.

'Cause with the shim from #1 exhaust out, I went ahead and began to rotate the engine forward and was going to remove the next shim I wanted to replace. But after rotating maybe a 1/4 turn, the engine won't budge.

I don't want to force it 'cause I'm afraid of damaging something.

OK.. never mind.. I found some postings referring to others who have done this. I went ahead and rotated forward, forcing the lobe to roll around. I checked and it looks like I got lucky this time! Whew! Guess I panicked.

So, now here's my beef. These shims are real pain in the ass to take out. So now I have to remove three others, measure them, figure out which ones I really need, go down to the local bike shop, buy those, come back, remove the old ones and replace with the new ones. Man! That's a drag!

This is all really educational, but I swear I really admire you other GS owners who do this all time as routine maintenance 'cause I gotta tell you this feels like a lot more work than routine.

Now I'm just whining. Sorry.

It's like the #1 intake lobe won't rotate out of the bucket.

So, did I just do something really, really stupid? And is there any way to get past this point?

Any help is greatly appreciated, as ever.

 

[kdo58]

If you need some help, I can come over. I helped tacomags850 last weekend with his. I have extra shims.

 

[SqDancerLynn1]

After you have do it once or twice you will have some extra shims for just this purpose. KEEP a record of what size shims are in the bike, nmakes it easier next time..

 

[oldgsfan]

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll do that. And thanks for the help KDO.

 

[BassCliff]

Hi,

It is not recommended to rotate the engine with shims missing. You might score the cam lobes and damage the buckets. You might leave metal shavings in the top of your motor. I hope I covered this in my valve adjustment guide. Did you download a copy? Keep us informed.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

 

[Nessism]

Hi,

It is not recommended to rotate the engine with shims missing. You might score the cam lobes and damage the buckets. You might leave metal shavings in the top of your motor.
BassCliff

Cliff is correct, NEVER rotate the engine without the shims. The cam lobes and valve bucket will get damaged. I suggest you look close at the parts in question before you go any further.

Z1 Enterprises sells shims for about $5/each. Write down the numbers you need and place an order, keeping in mind that you can recycle them as you go and order enough to cover the next few adjustments so you will be ready next time. A Real Gasket valve cover gasket is nice to have too since it's reuseable.

 

[Steve]

I am adjusting my valves for the first time and ... These shims are real pain in the ass to take out. So now I have to remove three others, measure them, figure out which ones I really need, go down to the local bike shop, buy those, come back, remove the old ones and replace with the new ones. Man! That's a drag! ...

Just how are you trying to remove the shims? It's not all that hard, even if you have problems using the 'official' tool, like I do.

If you have looked at the tutorials on BassCliff's site, you should have a very good idea what you are doing.
Be sure to also check out the "zip-tie method" for removing the shims. That's the method that I use and prefer.

KEEP a record of what size shims are in the bike, nmakes it easier next time..

As of yesterday (probably a couple of hours after the first post), he now has a copy of my spreadsheet that will help him do just that.

I hope I covered this in my valve adjustment guide. Did you download a copy? Keep us informed.

Cliff, I just looked though your guide and did not see any caution about not rotating the engine if any shims are removed.

.

 

[1_v8_merc]

I had a similar problem when I did them on me 650.

But luckily I read somewhere already that you DO NOT rotate without the shims.

But anyways, I was replacing a shim, put it back down in the bucket like normal, and apparently I didn't push it down hard enough, and when I went to rotate the motor to ensure the Shim was seated, and I heard a loud POP or PING noise....turns out the bastard popped out and locked my motor!(atleast hand-turning wise)

The shim came out of the bucket, got stuck in the corner against the aluminum bottom and side, luckily I was able to eventually turn the motor in reverse and slowly back the lobe the opposite way.
I barely had enough room to pop the shim back out.

I made a small dent in the aluminum, picked out a couple small chunks, and everything was good.

-----

I mean I had taken the shims out a plenty of times before, but I guess it was a freak accident and I took my eyes off the shim for a split second, and it was 90% seated, but I guess there was a little bit of oil underneath the shim still, and it rose itself up just a tad bit, enough for the lobe to push it back out.

So yeah, ALWAYS make sure the shims are seated completely, because I had a ton of oil in my valve casing area, and I actually had a FEW shims rise back out of the buckets on me within a couple seconds of seating them, because there was just a tons of oil in the bucket, or maybe I over-oiled them before seating them in.....and when you push it down a little bit, it sits for a second, then slowly rises again and oil slowly starts coming out from the bottom, so it kind of forms a reverse suction.
(don't mean to try and sound smart, but if I had to say it in a technical term, that would be close enough i guess.)lol

 

[Steve]

I had a similar problem when I did them on me 650.

But luckily I read somewhere already that you DO NOT rotate without the shims.

But anyways, I was replacing a shim, put it back down in the bucket like normal, and apparently I didn't push it down hard enough, and when I went to rotate the motor to ensure the Shim was seated, and I heard a loud POP or PING noise....turns out the bastard popped out and locked my motor!(atleast hand-turning wise)

The shim came out of the bucket, got stuck in the corner against the aluminum bottom and side, luckily I was able to eventually turn the motor in reverse and slowly back the lobe the opposite way.
I barely had enough room to pop the shim back out.

I made a small dent in the aluminum, picked out a couple small chunks, and everything was good.

-----

I mean I had taken the shims out a plenty of times before, but I guess it was a freak accident and I took my eyes off the shim for a split second, and it was 90% seated, but I guess there was a little bit of oil underneath the shim still, and it rose itself up just a tad bit, enough for the lobe to push it back out.

So yeah, ALWAYS make sure the shims are seated completely, because I had a ton of oil in my valve casing area, and I actually had a FEW shims rise back out of the buckets on me within a couple seconds of seating them, because there was just a tons of oil in the bucket, or maybe I over-oiled them before seating them in.....and when you push it down a little bit, it sits for a second, then slowly rises again and oil slowly starts coming out from the bottom, so it kind of forms a reverse suction.
(don't mean to try and sound smart, but if I had to say it in a technical term, that would be close enough i guess.)lol

I had that happen on my Kawasaki Voyager. Only it didn't go POP or PING, it went CRACK. This happened when the "special shim tool" slipped off the edge of the bucket before the shim was properly seated. Shattered the shim into numerous pieces. I spent the next couple of hours fishing with a magnet, then a couple more hours putting the pieces back together. When I was satisfied that I had all the pieces that were big enough to do some serious damage, I taped them together to make a "display" shim, then continued with my valve adjustment. Fortunately, I hade extra shims, so I could continue.

I have also noticed that the shims will rise a bit when you insert them. Because of that, and the fact that I have shattered one that was not quite in place when the tool slipped, I tend to press them into place and hold them while I turn the crank to remove my zip-tie.

.

 

[ddaniels]

Concerning the zip tie method, which I just experimented with tonight, it would be nice if the zip tie was a little thicker so the valve would stay extended a bit more. Because there's still minimum room to get the shim out. Yes, I doubled up the zip tie like it says to do. But, yeah, it's a ton easier than the "special tool".

 

[Steve]

After folding the zip-tie, put a 45-degree bend about 1/2" from the fold, then wrap some electrical tape or some shrink-wrap just above the bend to hold it snug. Works even better that way.

.

 

[oldgsfan]

So, yeah, I did get the valve job done, eventually.

As it turned out, I did shave a bit off the lobe for the No. 1 intake. I used a magnet to remove all the metal bits in there. That was depressing.

But since I had made such a major screw up, I spent a lot of time cleaning up the mess to be extra sure I didn't add to my mistake.

I actually had read the tutorial on BassCliff's site pretty closely, and, as usual, had it up on my laptop in the garage as I went through the procedure. I did the same thing when I rebuilt my carbs last summer.

I also went on the forum and read several strings of discussion on valve jobs. As fate would have it, I didn't come across a single one mentioning the "don't crank the engine with the shim removed" warning until AFTER I'd had done so. Sheesh! Now, it's like I'm seeing that warning everywhere! How did I miss that? Ugh. I'm so ashamed. I mean, and, honestly, it was a stupid mistake. I should have known better without someone holding my hand to tell me so.

A local bike shop here sold me the shims I needed for $6 bucks a pop, which I didn't think was too bad as it meant I could get them right away.

And, yes, I really did struggle with the shim removal until kdo58 kindly gave me a call and coached me through it. Thanks, man!

So, it's done. I can't say I'm 100 percent happy with the job I did, but I guess this is one of those learning experiences my first grade teacher warned me about.

The only thing I'm kinda worried about now is that there's this low whirring sound I hear now, that picks up when I rev the motor. I'm wondering if it has anything to do with the trimming I gave to that camshaft lobe?

Other than that, everything else seems OK.

As part of the whole job, I had also rebuilt the camshaft tensioner which has leaked like crazy since I've owned the bike. That job went real well so I'm happy about that at least.

Thanks for all the advice and suggestions. And, no, I never did get around to trying the zip tie method. Oh, and how could I forget? Steve's Excel sheet for tracking the shim sizes and calculating what new ones are needed was fantastic.

 

[Skunky]

Just finished my 850 and had a similar problem...not enough room to remove the shim easily. Try this...use the regular folded zip tie then cut a second zip tie in half and bend the end. Slide it between the folded one. It now gives you plenty of room to fit the tweezers in and get the shim out.

Or... I guess you could buy thicker zip ties

 

[oldgsfan]

Next time, if there is a next time, I will try that method.

Right now, I'm just glad it's all back together.

 

[Truth]

Not to hi-jack the thread or anything, but how does one get one of these mythical, magical valve job spread sheets? My new to me bike has 26k on it, and who knows when the last time was that it was done.

Thanks

 

[Steve]

Not to hi-jack the thread or anything, but how does one get one of these mythical, magical valve job spread sheets?

Well, the first thing to do is to read the last part of my sig. :-\\\

.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

So let me get this straight

So let me get this straight

OK, I'm new to this. I opened up my new-to-me GS750B yesterday to check the valves and they are all tight. All eight. I closed it back up and it seems to run fine, but I'm going to have to do something about it.
If I'm following the thread here, I'll have to open it up again, rotate the crankshaft into position, and then I can pull the first two exhaust shims (cylinders 1 and 2) and see what they are. Then I put them back so I can rotate the crankshaft forward and do it again (since I don't have any other shims to install), then repeat those steps for the intake valves on 1 and 2, re-installing so I can rotate forward to do the exhausts for 3 and 4, then one more time for the 3 and 4 intakes.
Then I can order the shims I need and wait (or go to my local Suzuki dealer, if they have the right sizes), then go through it all again. It's repetitive, but by the end of the process I should be getting pretty good at it, right?
Now, my question is this: On some of the valves, I could not slide a .001 blade in between the camshaft and the bucket. Can I just consider that a .000 for purposes of calculating the replacement shim, or should I go for a slightly undersized shim for a little extra leeway?

 

[gs road racer]

A question for your question..did the buckets rotate freely? If they rotate you're very close to 0.00 Either way you're going to do some damage soon without adjustment. Most original head (ie not had a valve job ) will be in the 2.60 to 2.85 so go buy a few and get started.A lot of time you'll be reusing shims in another bucket, see if the dealer will exchange shims (some will). Steve's sheet will help you as well.Hope that helps!

 

[The Voice of Reason]

gs road racer:

That helps a lot. Yes, the buckets rotated freely. I'll pick up a few assorted shims, probably on the thin side, and open 'er up.

It's sitting quietly until I finish this job; I'm not looking to make it any worse than it is!

Thanks!

 

[GSJim69]

Since it is sitting until it is done. I suggest popping each shim out and record the sizes. Since you said that all clearances are too small but all buckets turn freely, plan on going one size smaller on each valve.
Take the sizes installed and play musical shims on paper going one size smaller on each valve. Then buy the ones that you couldn't cover with ones that you have.
I just re-shimmed my valves after a valve job and covered all of my valves except two with the ones that I had. It wasn't too bad.
Good luck.