Z1 Enterprises Suzuki petcock

[bmt]

I purchased a Suzuki type petcock from Z1 enterprises about 6 months ago and it failed last month.

http://www.z1enterprises.com/detail.aspx?ID=1715

I went to take off the tank to do some carb work and found that gas was flowing no matter which way you turned the lever. I called Z1 expecting that they would just send me a replacement or maybe a rebuild kit but to my surprise I was told the part does not have a warranty and is sold AS IS.

After the phone call i sent a follow up email to confirm that the part was sold without a warranty and never received a response.

I'm pretty upset that the original Suzuki one lasted for 27 years (I only replaced it as preventative maintenance) and their petcock didn't make it 6 months.

I've placed nearly $1500 in orders from Z1 in the past year and while they have always fulfilled the orders in a timely fashion they've now lost a customer by not standing behind a product that they sell.

I should have spent the extra $12 for a Suzuki OEM petcock from BikeBandit and been done with it. At least that comes with a warranty.

 

[49er]

I have also spent many hundreds of $ at ZI.
This is not like Jeff. The business hasn't recently changed hands has it?

 

[salty_monk]

Me too.. doesn't sound like Jeff

 

[almarconi]

I've placed nearly $1500 in orders from Z1 in the past year and while they have always fulfilled the orders in a timely fashion they've now lost a customer by not standing behind a product that they sell.

How can you blame the retailer for a faulty part, they didn't manufacture it! Return the petcock to the manufacturer. Do you think the suzuki dealer would have just sent you another petcock? Jeff is a member of this forum and has always acted in a professional manner. His prices are reasonable and the shipping is fast. I don't know what more you could expect from a merchant.

 

[bwringer]

How can you blame the retailer for a faulty part, they didn't manufacture it! Return the petcock to the manufacturer. Do you think the suzuki dealer would have just sent you another petcock? Jeff is a member of this forum and has always acted in a professional manner. His prices are reasonable and the shipping is fast. I don't know what more you could expect from a merchant.

Exactly. Suzuki parts do not come with a warranty either.

 

[salty_monk]

Interesting... in the UK the warranty issues are the retailers to deal with in the primary instance.
I knew it was a little different here but surely Jeff would not have simply said "sold as is" he would have at least provided the referal info for the manufacturer etc...

 

[Nessism]

I had a similar experience with Z1. Bought a K&L master cylinder kit and it bound in the bore of the master. Called them up and Jeff told me they have sold lots of those parts without issue, thus implying the problem was mine. I was in a placid mood and didn't press the issue. I still like Z1 but clearly they are not going to side with their customers when it comes to product quality claims. I ate the money and only order from Z1 now when necessary. They are off my preferred vendor list.

 

[SqDancerLynn1]

Did you take it apart and clean it ? could have gotten some junk from the tank ???

 

[jeff.saunders]

BMT, I didn't take your call, so I can only comment in general - who did you speak with, and who did you email?

1) the petcock you bought - we have experienced ZERO problems with them - we have sold 100's and 100's of these petcocks.
2) the petcock you bought may come in a Tour-Max box, but it is an OEM petcock - buy from Suzuki and it is an identical unit.
3) Suzuki gives ZERO warranty on things like this. Once you bolt it to your bike and use it for more than a few days, they will not replace it. In fact, buy it from Suzuki, and you cannot return it even if it's unused as the vast majority of their older parts are now in an 'all sales are final' status.
4) K&L is the importer. They give zero warranty - although they are usually good about replacing units that are 'defective out of the box'. But after 6 months of use, they will not replace it.
5) There has to be a finite period when goodwill replacements end. Is it 30 days, 60 days, 6 months, 1 year, 10 years? From our perspective we try to help customers with goodwill replacements when the problem occurs in a reasonable amount of time. Many will attest to us sending replacement parts out if there is a problem with a part. Sadly we've seen people abusing this of late - we've had a number of parts shipped back to us where the parts were not defective, just damaged by the customer - and in one case, not even the part we sold the customer.
6) Emails - if we receive what appears to be a duplicate request, the chances are it will get ignored - we receive far too many emails that get worked by one person here while another person is taking a phone call from the same customer.

When you bolt new parts to old bikes, it is sometimes unreasonable to expect them to last as long as the original - mainly because the rest of the bike is not new. I'm not saying the petcock should quit inside a year, but there may be things influencing the problem.

We do try and understand the issues - so it's important to know what is causing the problem. Often it can be a simple issue - anything from rust/crud getting into the petcock, to a bad o-ring, to ??? Once we see a pattern, we work with the importer/manufacturer to resolve any defects.

I would suggest looking in the back of the unit to see why the o-ring seal on the diaphragm is not seating properly. Let me know what you find - and I'll see what we can do to help.

Nessism - as I mentioned to you at the time, we had sold a good number of those kits and have not had any other problems reported. That kit is one with an OEM piston in it. Having not heard back from you, I assumed you'd resolved the problem.

As an industry footnote, the 'aftermarket' parts industry is not what most of you think. The majority of vacuum petcocks, diaphragms, master cylinder and caliper rebuild kits, carb slides (with diaphragms), and even some tools are OEM parts repackaged - even we do this with some kits. In some cases the key parts (like master cylinder pistons) are OEM, the rest might be aftermarket. Additionally, many of the OEM suppliers will continue to make the parts after the OEM company stops ordering. For these parts, the fit and function is perfect.

BTW, Tour-Max is the house brand for MC International - a company that doesn't make anything - they assemble products for companies like K&L - and rarely get anything made for them - their primary source for parts are the OEM companies and their direct suppliers.

There are a number of 'aftermarket only' companies making parts. The quality ranges from superb to absolute junk. There is a tendancy to put down aftermarket as inferior, when only a small percentage of aftermarket parts are bad i.e. non-DOT turn signals - while many parts are equivilent quantity or better - i.e. APE cylinder studs, K&S Turn Signals...

One unfortunate side to the industry - fake items - Vesrah is one company hit with illegal (marginal) copies of their gasket sets. I don't know how pervasive that problem is, but I've heard Vesrah was impacted by some of this in Europe for sure. Dynojet had a similar problem with some of their kits.

 

[chuckycheese]

Info.

Info.

That's very interesting information, Jeff, and very good to know.

 

[Nessism]

Nessism - as I mentioned to you at the time, we had sold a good number of those kits and have not had any other problems reported. That kit is one with an OEM piston in it. Having not heard back from you, I assumed you'd resolved the problem.

Jeff,

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

I can confirm what you say about the petcock being an OE part, at least on the famous no-lever 1980 Suzuki petcock; I ordered one from you and it is identical to the OE part, including the mfg logo cast into the side of the body.

Regarding K&L brake parts being OE Suzuki parts, I do not believe they are. The OE rubber parts have a smoother and brighter surface finish, the K&L rubber parts have a duller finish - they lack the same sheen. Not saying these rubber parts need to be shinny, only mentioning this to highlight a clear difference. There are also dimensional differences between the K&L brake parts and OE parts - the master cylinder piston boot is clearly different for example as is the master cylinder rubber seal on the piston.

Regarding my particular complaint, after our discussion, and your telling me that you have sold a good many of these kits without issue, I went back and tried the part again and even tried it in a different master with the same result. Frankly, you seemed like a reasonable person but you clearly were not going to give me the benefit of a doubt about a quality problem with the part. I understand that you must get tons of bogus complaints about perfectly good parts, so I just did not feel like pressing the issue with you regarding getting a replacement (although I admit this issue has stuck in my craw to some extent).

I'm not down on Z1, and still recommend them often...for everything but K&L brake system parts.

 

[jeff.saunders]

Sadly, K&L have been discontinuing many of the Suzuki master cylinder and caliper kits - the reason - they can't get the parts from Suzuki anymore...

The bogus product complaints seems to be a fairly new thing. I suspect the economy is prompting people to deceive. It has prompted us to probe more extensively when parts are thought to be bad.

I will say we are experiencing some recent problems with the inexpensive aftermarket (Bikers Choice) petcocks we sell. I suspect the increasing amount of Ethanol in fuel or different fuel additives may be causing the issue. The petcock maker claims the seals are Viton (a rubber compound supposedly safe with US Gasoline products). I've been soaking some seals in different stuff to see what it reacts to.

 

[bmt]

Thank You

Thank You

Jeff,
Thank you for taking the time to personally respond to this. If I had been given half of this information when I called or had received a response to my email I would not have felt the need to make my original post. I will PM you with the specifics for who I spoke with and when.

I work in the service department for a major national bicycle retailer and deal with customer service and warranty issues all day long. I completely understand that if K&L or any distributor does not offer a warranty on the part then there is nothing you, as a retailer, can do for your customers without eroding your bottom line.

If you can't get a credit for a defective part from your supplier then I don't expect you to cover the cost of a replacement. I consider the matter closed but would recommend that you add a 'warranty information' page to your website with some of this information as it would have saved me a lot of grief and aggravation.

~BMT

BMT, I didn't take your call, so I can only comment in general - who did you speak with, and who did you email?

1) the petcock you bought - we have experienced ZERO problems with them - we have sold 100's and 100's of these petcocks.
2) the petcock you bought may come in a Tour-Max box, but it is an OEM petcock - buy from Suzuki and it is an identical unit.
3) Suzuki gives ZERO warranty on things like this. Once you bolt it to your bike and use it for more than a few days, they will not replace it. In fact, buy it from Suzuki, and you cannot return it even if it's unused as the vast majority of their older parts are now in an 'all sales are final' status.
4) K&L is the importer. They give zero warranty - although they are usually good about replacing units that are 'defective out of the box'. But after 6 months of use, they will not replace it.
5) There has to be a finite period when goodwill replacements end. Is it 30 days, 60 days, 6 months, 1 year, 10 years? From our perspective we try to help customers with goodwill replacements when the problem occurs in a reasonable amount of time. Many will attest to us sending replacement parts out if there is a problem with a part. Sadly we've seen people abusing this of late - we've had a number of parts shipped back to us where the parts were not defective, just damaged by the customer - and in one case, not even the part we sold the customer.
6) Emails - if we receive what appears to be a duplicate request, the chances are it will get ignored - we receive far too many emails that get worked by one person here while another person is taking a phone call from the same customer.

When you bolt new parts to old bikes, it is sometimes unreasonable to expect them to last as long as the original - mainly because the rest of the bike is not new. I'm not saying the petcock should quit inside a year, but there may be things influencing the problem.

We do try and understand the issues - so it's important to know what is causing the problem. Often it can be a simple issue - anything from rust/crud getting into the petcock, to a bad o-ring, to ??? Once we see a pattern, we work with the importer/manufacturer to resolve any defects.

I would suggest looking in the back of the unit to see why the o-ring seal on the diaphragm is not seating properly. Let me know what you find - and I'll see what we can do to help.

Nessism - as I mentioned to you at the time, we had sold a good number of those kits and have not had any other problems reported. That kit is one with an OEM piston in it. Having not heard back from you, I assumed you'd resolved the problem.

As an industry footnote, the 'aftermarket' parts industry is not what most of you think. The majority of vacuum petcocks, diaphragms, master cylinder and caliper rebuild kits, carb slides (with diaphragms), and even some tools are OEM parts repackaged - even we do this with some kits. In some cases the key parts (like master cylinder pistons) are OEM, the rest might be aftermarket. Additionally, many of the OEM suppliers will continue to make the parts after the OEM company stops ordering. For these parts, the fit and function is perfect.

BTW, Tour-Max is the house brand for MC International - a company that doesn't make anything - they assemble products for companies like K&L - and rarely get anything made for them - their primary source for parts are the OEM companies and their direct suppliers.

There are a number of 'aftermarket only' companies making parts. The quality ranges from superb to absolute junk. There is a tendancy to put down aftermarket as inferior, when only a small percentage of aftermarket parts are bad i.e. non-DOT turn signals - while many parts are equivilent quantity or better - i.e. APE cylinder studs, K&S Turn Signals...

One unfortunate side to the industry - fake items - Vesrah is one company hit with illegal (marginal) copies of their gasket sets. I don't know how pervasive that problem is, but I've heard Vesrah was impacted by some of this in Europe for sure. Dynojet had a similar problem with some of their kits.

 

[49er]

BMT, I didn't take your call, so I can only comment in general - who did you speak with, and who did you email?

1) the petcock you bought - we have experienced ZERO problems with them - we have sold 100's and 100's of these petcocks.
2) the petcock you bought may come in a Tour-Max box, but it is an OEM petcock - buy from Suzuki and it is an identical unit.
3) Suzuki gives ZERO warranty on things like this. Once you bolt it to your bike and use it for more than a few days, they will not replace it. In fact, buy it from Suzuki, and you cannot return it even if it's unused as the vast majority of their older parts are now in an 'all sales are final' status.
4) K&L is the importer. They give zero warranty - although they are usually good about replacing units that are 'defective out of the box'. But after 6 months of use, they will not replace it.
5) There has to be a finite period when goodwill replacements end. Is it 30 days, 60 days, 6 months, 1 year, 10 years? From our perspective we try to help customers with goodwill replacements when the problem occurs in a reasonable amount of time. Many will attest to us sending replacement parts out if there is a problem with a part. Sadly we've seen people abusing this of late - we've had a number of parts shipped back to us where the parts were not defective, just damaged by the customer - and in one case, not even the part we sold the customer.
6) Emails - if we receive what appears to be a duplicate request, the chances are it will get ignored - we receive far too many emails that get worked by one person here while another person is taking a phone call from the same customer.

When you bolt new parts to old bikes, it is sometimes unreasonable to expect them to last as long as the original - mainly because the rest of the bike is not new. I'm not saying the petcock should quit inside a year, but there may be things influencing the problem.

We do try and understand the issues - so it's important to know what is causing the problem. Often it can be a simple issue - anything from rust/crud getting into the petcock, to a bad o-ring, to ??? Once we see a pattern, we work with the importer/manufacturer to resolve any defects.

I would suggest looking in the back of the unit to see why the o-ring seal on the diaphragm is not seating properly. Let me know what you find - and I'll see what we can do to help.

Nessism - as I mentioned to you at the time, we had sold a good number of those kits and have not had any other problems reported. That kit is one with an OEM piston in it. Having not heard back from you, I assumed you'd resolved the problem.

As an industry footnote, the 'aftermarket' parts industry is not what most of you think. The majority of vacuum petcocks, diaphragms, master cylinder and caliper rebuild kits, carb slides (with diaphragms), and even some tools are OEM parts repackaged - even we do this with some kits. In some cases the key parts (like master cylinder pistons) are OEM, the rest might be aftermarket. Additionally, many of the OEM suppliers will continue to make the parts after the OEM company stops ordering. For these parts, the fit and function is perfect.

BTW, Tour-Max is the house brand for MC International - a company that doesn't make anything - they assemble products for companies like K&L - and rarely get anything made for them - their primary source for parts are the OEM companies and their direct suppliers.

There are a number of 'aftermarket only' companies making parts. The quality ranges from superb to absolute junk. There is a tendancy to put down aftermarket as inferior, when only a small percentage of aftermarket parts are bad i.e. non-DOT turn signals - while many parts are equivilent quantity or better - i.e. APE cylinder studs, K&S Turn Signals...

One unfortunate side to the industry - fake items - Vesrah is one company hit with illegal (marginal) copies of their gasket sets. I don't know how pervasive that problem is, but I've heard Vesrah was impacted by some of this in Europe for sure. Dynojet had a similar problem with some of their kits.

Jeff, thanks for this response. I am very interested in your take on the Vesrah gasket problem. It appears that both Brian and I have born the brunt of these scams.

 

[jeff.saunders]

BMT - we will take your idea of adding a warranty page to our store information.

Some of the manufacturers are very clear and have a defined warranty (like Dynatek, Progressive Suspension and others). Unfortunately most have 'weasel words' just stating they offer no direct warranty, but rather just pass-on any warranty provided by their suppliers and manufacturers (which doesn't really tell you what the warranty is).

 

[jeff.saunders]

BMT (and others) - One piece of information for you - your petcock may be working as designed. I don't have a factory manual for your bike, but in the GS1100 factory service manual, there is a note about not turning the petcock to prime and back.

When the engine is not running and the valve in the on position, the fuel valve is kept in the closed position by applying pressure utilizing a spring so no fuel will flow to the carburetors.
When the engine is engaged, a negative pressure is generated in the diaphragm chamber "C" through the vacuum (negative pressure) pipe which is connected to the carburetors, and builds up a negative pressure which is higher than the spring pressure so the diaphragm is forced to open the fuel valve and thus allow the fuel to flow to the carburetors.
On the other hand, setting the valve in the ON position keeps the air return orifice open.
Negative pressure does not accumulate on the diaphragm at the time the engine is stopping, and then the spring pressure actuates the diaphragm to move back into its original position and closes the fuel valve.
However, setting the valve in PRI position causes the air return orifice to close, resulting in negative pressure in the chamber "C" under the diaphragm. This negative pressure doesn't allow the fuel valve to close and therefore fuel keeps flowing to the carburetors.

This suggests you must have the engine cranking to create a vacuum to reset the petcock.

 

[jeff.saunders]

49er - Vesrah... I was talking to a rep from one of our suppliers that buys from a manufacturer in Taiwan. They were surprised to see Vesrah packaging on some of the products going out the door. That same rep was talking to Vesrah a few months later and just commented on them using this supplier in Taiwan. At which point the Vesrah sales guy went into a panic mode and immediately called their bosses back in Japan...

I've not seen anything in the press about this, but my understanding was a distributor of Vesrah products thought they could source them cheaper from Taiwan...

As a footnote to piracy versus deceit, many of the products coming out of Japan with a 'Made in Japan' label on the box are not made in Japan. We used to buy some product from a distributor in Japan - their packaging all had the 'Made in Japan' labels - however, we found their source for some of the products was in Taiwan

 

[johnchambers]

Looking for valve shims 2.60 and 2.70 four of each 2.95 mm

 

[GSXR7ED]

I've never had issues with Z1....


Ed

 

[Guest]

Z1 Back Online

Z1 Back Online

Just checked the site and Z1 seems to be back online! Haven't tried to order yet but site is back up.