450 clutch pushrod seal flanged?

[Dostoy320]

Hey guys. I know we just went over this with ottawa rogue's thread, but...

I have a 1981 GS450E with a minor leak from the clutch pushrod seal. My engine has the retainer plate that covers that seal as well as the splined sprocket shaft seal, so I assumed I have a non-flanged seal and ordered a replacement.

Last night I removed the sprocket, retainer plate, and the outer section of the clutch pushrod to expose the seals. The problem is, I cannot get the clutch pushrod seal to pop out. I can spin the seal in place, so it's not just "stuck". It behaves like I would expect a flanged seal to behave: it can rotate in its groove, but it can't be pulled outward because of the flange.

Is it possible I have both the retainer plate and a flanged seal? The service manual I have says that even though there are two types of seals, all engines are cast for the earlier, flanged type of seal, and that the non-flanged seal can be used if there is a retainer plate. Is this accurate? Did Suzuki leave the groove for the flange in place on later models even though they had switched to a retainer plate to hold the seal in place?

Any guidance is appreciated. I'm trying to decide what my next steps are....

Thanks.

 

[Dostoy320]

Well I guess I can answer my own question now.

It is indeed possible to have a flanged seal under the retainer plate. After a few more attempts at pulling the seal straight out, I was pretty certain there was a flange standing in my way. Confident that I could use a non-flanged seal as the replacement, I decided to destroy the original seal to remove it without splitting the engine. So I packed grease in behind the seal to catch metal shavings, then started carefully carving away the seal with a dremel and pliers. Eventually, I had removed enough metal to bend the seal edges into toward the center, pulling the flange from the groove in the case.

The mangled seal:

While removing the seal, I did my best to avoid marring the surrounding aluminum, but I still managed to put a few shallow dings in the case. I lightly sanded the cavity with 600 grit paper to take down any rough edges. Here you can see the groove for the flange, as well as the marks from my tools near the seam in the case:

I coated the outer edge of the new, non-flanged seal in Permatex non-hardening sealer, the carefully tapped it into place and re-installed the pushrod:

The retainer plate back in place (and the surrounding area cleaned up a bit - man, it's messy in this area...):

Did a shake-down ride, then checked for any leakage. So far so good!

 

[Guest]

I considered advising you to try exactly what you did, bit also considered how ugly it could get if someone with poor hand skills and/or short patience did it. Other than splitting the cases, this was the only option. Bravo, well done.

I think there is a certain amount of oil pressure behind this seal because the shaft is fed from the gallery. But the flow is restricted so it wouldn't be line pressure, but enough that either retainer plate or flange is needed, especially when the seal shrinks a bit and gets loose in the case. In fact, I'd bet the oil was going around the seal, and you might have been able to 'fix' it by cleaning it dead dry and using some silicone under the plate around the edge.

Amazing condition bike.

 

[Dostoy320]

Thanks John. When I was a kid learning how to wrench on things, my dad put a lot of emphasis on patience - slow down, think through it, don't make it worse. I try to keep that in mind when doing stuff like this. It's easy to get frustrated and make things much worse very quickly!

I think you're right that there is pressure there and that the seal was leaking around its edges. The contact between the pushrod and original seal still seemed really good.

The bike photographs a bit better than it looks in person, but it's getting better every season!

 

[Gorminrider]

ooh-eee! nice bike!