82 GS300L - Right-Side Drop Outs, Bogs, Stalls

[philmotion]

Hi again,

A little update here:

AIR LEAKS: Looking to airleaks at the intakes I did see that my boots from the airbox to the carb were not seated as nicely as they could be so I adjusted that. The bike responded beautifully on one day (a warm day) and went back to the same behaviour the next (cold day). When performing a spray test with WD-40 and Carb Cleaner I did not notice any major change in idle.

PETCOCK TEST: I did let it warm up a good deal and tried the petcock test after a short ride but nothing struck me as not performing as it should. I tried a clear vacuum hose on the vac line and it visibly also appears to be doing its job. I also tried putting a long fuel line into a clear bucket and manually sucking on the vacuum line in "reserve" and "ride" and it is also operating seemingly as it should; free flowing fuel, a clear stop to how much I can draw back on the line with fuel flowing freely and stopping as it should.

Any other ideas?

Much appreciated.

But just to lay the petcock to rest, this would've been the time to test it. As well as anything else that is easy... the surging idle seems like a symptom you can get your teeth into...I think a " lean-running engine when warm" is hard to "settle" with the throttles' idle setting and at the idle-mix screws so you might move on to checking for airleaks at the intakes....

 

[roeme]

So it's an intermittent issue, and not readily reproducible.
Last time I had one of these, it turned out to be a wonky electrical connection.
Second to last time, first obstructed and then missing petcock screen inside tank (debris of unknown origin).

 

[fbody_mike]

The only thing I can really offer at this point is to let it act up, and let the motor stall instead of reviving it with throttle. Once that happens, quickly pull the plugs and check to see if they are carbon or fuel fouled. I'd expect to see them fuel fouled if blipping the throttle revives the engine. I think you got a tough gremlin on your hands.

 

[philmotion]

Thanks Mike. Tough gremlin indeed. I will keep chipping away. First real day of snow today up in Ottawa, Canada so the pressure of the last rides is long gone...will keep chipping away over the winter. Thanks for all the tips.

The only thing I can really offer at this point is to let it act up, and let the motor stall instead of reviving it with throttle. Once that happens, quickly pull the plugs and check to see if they are carbon or fuel fouled. I'd expect to see them fuel fouled if blipping the throttle revives the engine. I think you got a tough gremlin on your hands.

 

[Gorminrider]

But the fun is in guessing, gremlin or not. It should be a comfort that it's almost always something simple, on these simple engines.
But I like to practise my manualese: so
blah: The motorcycle has two basic "circuits" with jets for each. Low speed and high speed. There is a "shifting" from one to the other circuit as the throttle is opened and revs increase... Simply, tweaking mixture screws has virtually no effect on high speed running and very little at medium speed.. you can see that by its small size and position close to the nearly-closed throttle plate, where vacuum is very high when the plate is closed... But the low speed jet is on the other side of the throttleplate...it's a kind of "background" to the varying high speed jet

It still sounds like a variable fuel supply at lower speeds and it sounds to me that one cylinder might still be dropping out per your original post

Since your trouble seems specific to low-medium rpm, the low-speed circuit is a suspect. But, since your idle-mix screws DO have a noticeable effect, the passages and screw are probably good. But the lowspeed jet, (with its tiny holes) as a strong suspect....I know you cleaned the carb but even "cleaned" means various things. It may even loosen deposits and these return as problems...

By the way, the idle-jets have rubber plugs over the jet-well on my bike. Does yours?

More fuel: Float needle not sealing and fuel level too high? (say, high speed consumes the extra fuel, low speed does not and bike balks) There'd be smoke at exhaust too, when running...and it'd create a puddle of gas under the bike or in the sump! (smell the oil) when tap is left on Prime .

To set mind at ease? fuel-level test: if you have a piece of clear "pvc-similar" tube, warm it til it stretches creating a "neck", let it cool and cut it where it matches the bowl drain hole diameter. Screw the cooled tube into the hole and hold the other end of the tube above the bowl. Turn fuel tap to prime. Fuel level should be steady very near the gasket joining bowl to carb....the angle of the bike will be reflected so don't puzzle that level changes as sighting level relative to the gasket line..

.Fuel level: Floats can get hung up on a gasket or..?, float needle sticking , needle spring inoperable(the float needles actually have a tiny spring on the pin that contacts float- that would affect bowl's fuel level and also render the system more sensitive to bumps and vibration).

A loose battery connection can come very close to your symptoms when the bike is running! but if the bike is starting consistently, running well at high speed, it's less likely.
Ignition: the bike has a mechanical ignition advance. If it is balky and not returning to low rpm position smoothly, the timing will be too far advanced at low rpm Check it is working properly, unimpeded by a stray wire or rust or etc. A strobe light would check this when bike is running badly.

 

[LAB3]

It's an 82, the ignition advance is done in the ignitor box. Since winter is upon you my attention would go toward a thorough inspection of the electrical system. Make sure all your connectors are pulled apart and cleaned as well as your grounds. Grab some wire and run a common ground between points instead of relying on the frame go do the job.

I'll also agree that it's something very simple, finding the simple issue is the frustrating part!

 

[Gorminrider]

It's an 82, the ignition advance is done in the ignitor box.

Oh shoot! Sorry-My mistake!

 

[fbody_mike]

I once had some float needles that would not flood, but they wouldn't fully shut off in certain situations, like 20 minutes into a ride at constant speed of say 60 mph. I would have to speed up or rev the heck out of it to keep it from dying. Couldn't see anything wrong with the float needles, other than they must have been worn to the seat in such a way that when the rotated they would leak. Drove me nuts for a while because I could not find the problem, ended up changing the seats and needles and the problem went away. So yeah, it is hard when it is intermittent and not extreme to cause a stall, just have to keep after it. Come to think about it those needles could have been sticking shut and cause the same problem.

 

[philmotion]

So I took a spin yesterday, a rare occurrence in this late in November in Ottawa. Bike ran pretty well over all without having touched it. When I last looked at it I put a clear vacuum tube on just out of curiosity. I noticed that some condensation develops in the tube, more at low rpms as it accumulates and less at higher rpms as it dissipates, presumably getting sucked into the carb. If so,

1) Could this condensation, or in other words these water droplets be finding their way into the float bowls and cause the erractic behaviour?

2) Would this pull us back to a petcock issue?


Thank you.

P

But the fun is in guessing, gremlin or not. It should be a comfort that it's almost always something simple, on these simple engines.
But I like to practise my manualese: so
blah: The motorcycle has two basic "circuits" with jets for each. Low speed and high speed. There is a "shifting" from one to the other circuit as the throttle is opened and revs increase... Simply, tweaking mixture screws has virtually no effect on high speed running and very little at medium speed.. you can see that by its small size and position close to the nearly-closed throttle plate, where vacuum is very high when the plate is closed... But the low speed jet is on the other side of the throttleplate...it's a kind of "background" to the varying high speed jet

It still sounds like a variable fuel supply at lower speeds and it sounds to me that one cylinder might still be dropping out per your original post

Since your trouble seems specific to low-medium rpm, the low-speed circuit is a suspect. But, since your idle-mix screws DO have a noticeable effect, the passages and screw are probably good. But the lowspeed jet, (with its tiny holes) as a strong suspect....I know you cleaned the carb but even "cleaned" means various things. It may even loosen deposits and these return as problems...

By the way, the idle-jets have rubber plugs over the jet-well on my bike. Does yours?

More fuel: Float needle not sealing and fuel level too high? (say, high speed consumes the extra fuel, low speed does not and bike balks) There'd be smoke at exhaust too, when running...and it'd create a puddle of gas under the bike or in the sump! (smell the oil) when tap is left on Prime .

To set mind at ease? fuel-level test: if you have a piece of clear "pvc-similar" tube, warm it til it stretches creating a "neck", let it cool and cut it where it matches the bowl drain hole diameter. Screw the cooled tube into the hole and hold the other end of the tube above the bowl. Turn fuel tap to prime. Fuel level should be steady very near the gasket joining bowl to carb....the angle of the bike will be reflected so don't puzzle that level changes as sighting level relative to the gasket line..

.Fuel level: Floats can get hung up on a gasket or..?, float needle sticking , needle spring inoperable(the float needles actually have a tiny spring on the pin that contacts float- that would affect bowl's fuel level and also render the system more sensitive to bumps and vibration).

A loose battery connection can come very close to your symptoms when the bike is running! but if the bike is starting consistently, running well at high speed, it's less likely.
Ignition: the bike has a mechanical ignition advance. If it is balky and not returning to low rpm position smoothly, the timing will be too far advanced at low rpm Check it is working properly, unimpeded by a stray wire or rust or etc. A strobe light would check this when bike is running badly.

 

[Grimly]

Condensation in a vacuum line is just the moisture vapour present in the air being dropped out of suspension because of the vacuum.
In other words, it's normally part of your engine's daily diet and nothing to worry about - indeed, your engine runs a bit better when there's a bit of humidity.
Only start to worry if it condenses out in the tank and settles along the bottom, rusting the seam out.

 

[philmotion]

Ok thanks Grimly!

Condensation in a vacuum line is just the moisture vapour present in the air being dropped out of suspension because of the vacuum.
In other words, it's normally part of your engine's daily diet and nothing to worry about - indeed, your engine runs a bit better when there's a bit of humidity.
Only start to worry if it condenses out in the tank and settles along the bottom, rusting the seam out.

 

[Gorminrider]

Could this condensation, or in other words these water droplets be finding their way into the float bowls and cause the erractic behaviour?

...Any fluids in the petcock vacuum tube have no direct way to get into the floatbowl...the vacuum function is walled off from fuel by the diaphragm ....it'd somehow have to go all the way back via the carb throats, then down through the carb jets...and all that is against the engine's suction t'wards the pistons!

Must be cold in Ottawa to cause this. It should go away on a warm engine.

 

[philmotion]

NEW DEVELOPMENT:

After thoroughly cleaning the carbs one more time and putting everything back together again, I report still no change = erratic idle in neutral and at low speeds.

I pulled the sidecover of the regulator and ignitor unit side and when pushing and pulling on that entire assembly, i.e. where the starter solenoid is I noticed a considerable change in behaviour and idle!

I tried wiggling individual wires around the RR, battery and igniter. RR seems fine, battery does not cut electrical i.e visibly killing the lights, but in particular when moving wires from the igniter unit the idle changes sporadically and bike even dies occasionally.

This definitely now feels electrical and I would suspect that this is no normal.. My question now is where do I start?

...Any fluids in the petcock vacuum tube have no direct way to get into the floatbowl...the vacuum function is walled off from fuel by the diaphragm ....it'd somehow have to go all the way back via the carb throats, then down through the carb jets...and all that is against the engine's suction t'wards the pistons!

Must be cold in Ottawa to cause this. It should go away on a warm engine.

 

[roeme]

Called it.

Start by doing a visual inspection: Any wires rubbed through? Charring? Corrosion?

And while doing so, clean connections.

Also you could get a cheapo multimeter and watch the resistance while wiggling. Or generally check if resistances are fine.

Edit: However, if it's only occasional, I wouldn't trust it too much...

 

[philmotion]

Sure did! Will have a look today. Nothing seems visibly charred, burnt or corroded but maybe there are some loose contact points in some of the connectors. Will have a look and get back to you.

Called it.

Start by doing a visual inspection: Any wires rubbed through? Charring? Corrosion?

And while doing so, clean connections.

Also you could get a cheapo multimeter and watch the resistance while wiggling. Or generally check if resistances are fine.

Edit: However, if it's only occasional, I wouldn't trust it too much...

 

[fbody_mike]

Great news! The weakest signal in the area will be the one from the pickup coils, follow that wire from the right side of the crank case back to the ignitor module and look for any breaks, especially near where you press and get a response.

 

[philmotion]

Hey everyone,

Ok, so I started poking around at the igniter unit and the connector where I believe the problem is originating, namely in that it appears to be immediately and obviously more sensitive, meaning any fiddling about in that area provokes a response in idle.

I did clean the connections on both the igniter and the connector, even removing the tabs to ensure they are mating nice and snug. This did help a little, i.e. less sporadic with drop-outs however I mostly noticed that when I

1) lightly put pressure on the entire connector I seem to get more of a response and than fiddling with the individual leads
2) when I depress on a particular section of the gelatin-like back of the igniter, I get a real bog and drop-out

Could it possibly be that the igniter unit is defective? As the igniter is not a box I can easily open to see the components (waterproof gelatin-like backing), I am assuming there is no way to get to it to either fix it or reverse-engineer it and I would simply need to find a replacement?

 

[fbody_mike]

Unfortunately you've got an ignitor box that is only used on the gs300l. Makes it harder to find second hand and no longer available new. But it sounds like you have a short or broken joint in the box. People have dissolved the potting material with solvents like Xylene. It's an easy choice to make that attempt when the box is completely failed because there is nothing to lose. So for your situation I don't know what to recommend because trying to dissolve the potting may ruin it or may reveal an easy to fix solder joint.
Maybe what I'd do is to find a way to secure the wire harness so that it doesn't move or vibrate when riding so you can stop the bogging. Find a replacement ignitor, make sure it works, then try to dissolve the potting on your current box so you can fix this box for a spare.

 

[Grimly]

It's not like the ignitor boxes are made of unicorn snot.
For example, the GN250 ignitor box is currently being investigated as a drop-in replacement on the XS650 forum.
It's also a parallel twin.
Depending on the triggering of the GS300, it might be a drop-in for that, too. It would be the cheapest known way of replacing an ignitor I've ever come across, given that aftermarket GN250 boxes are selling on ebay for $25 or so.

The next step up is an ignitor from www.ignitech.cz, which is guaranteed to work.

 

[philmotion]

Thanks Any danger of dropping in a GN250 ignitor box and seeing what happens?

Also curious if the GS250's ignitor box is the same?