Advice on downhill curves?

[tkent02]

He could have passed you at his convenience. It's not your bad unless you are in a huge group going slower than Winnebagos through the turns. A single bike can be passed safely by another just about anywhere.

 

[7981GS]

This is only going down a few thousand feet in elevation on a borrowed bike.
Not as aggressively as usually taken but you kind of get the idea.
Give it a little time to load in HD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-JX1CyJie8


Eric

 

[MisterCinders]

He could have passed you at his convenience. It's not your bad unless you are in a huge group going slower than Winnebagos through the turns. A single bike can be passed safely by another just about anywhere.

As tight and blind as the corners in that stretch are, there is almost no room to pass even a lone bike without rolling the dice on something coming around the bend. Even if he could do it within the lane, cars often drift the double-yellow coming the other way, so you cannot even be sure that you'll have a full lane to ride in.

Edit: Plus, the guy wasn't a dick about it, wasn't riding my ass, didn't even say anything later, etc. I just knew that he could have been tearing up that stretch of road but for me.

 

[CivilRock]

My two cents.

My two cents.

25 yrs street riding
20 yrs off road riding/racing
10 yrs road racing
7 yrs Supermoto Racing
7 yrs MX
3 yrs flat track racing
RR instructor, SM instructor, many schools, American Supercamp Graduate.

Hard front braking leaned over can straighten the bike up. Totally depends on the type of bike, tire profile, bike geometry, lean angle, speed, etc. Imagine a wide, "not pointy" front tire with the bike leaned way over right at the edge of the tire, almost on the rim. It can pull the bars and effectively "stand up". Doesn't really apply to leisurely GS riding advice, and probably won't happen on a standard wheeled GS.

Here's my advice to the OP:

1. Use both brakes. This isn't a track day. This isn't super sticky rubber on a 180mph straight. This is crappy rubber on a crappy road with crappy suspension going 35mph. Somebody fresh out of flat track school might tell you the only way to turn is with the rear brake; again, this isn't a clay oval, use both brakes.

3. Loosen up your body. Loosen up your grip on the bars- that's the only way you'll be able to feel what the bike is doing. Try pushing the bike down in the corner flat track style, or the same as the police bike video. Notice that his torso stays pretty upright. Then try hanging off the bike toward the inside of the turn road race style. Move your but around on the seat. Try stuff, get a feel for it. Most people ride with their spine exactly lined up with the center of the bike. Dance with it. You're not in a car.

4. Trust your tires and look where you want to go. You'd be amazed how well even crappy tires will do.

5. Practice. There's no way you'll know what to do in an emergency situation if you don't practice getting into that situation. Use the rear until it skids. See if you can lock up the front and release it. (at your own risk). If I were you, I'd go back to that corner and ride it 20 times. There's easily 50 different combinations of technique to try. Do it once with your foot out. Try it with your crotch right up on the tank. See if you can do it downshifting and modulating the clutch only (no brakes).

I know this isn't about "advanced riding", but I learned more about braking and turning a motorcycle in 2 days with an xr100 on a clay oval than I did 20yrs of riding and racing.

Ideally, you want to do all your braking before you get to the corner and be on the gas by the time you hit the apex.

Have fun with it!

 

[TheCafeKid]

25 yrs street riding
20 yrs off road riding/racing
10 yrs road racing
7 yrs Supermoto Racing
7 yrs MX
3 yrs flat track racing
RR instructor, SM instructor, many schools, American Supercamp Graduate.

Hard front braking leaned over can straighten the bike up. Totally depends on the type of bike, tire profile, bike geometry, lean angle, speed, etc. Imagine a wide, "not pointy" front tire with the bike leaned way over right at the edge of the tire, almost on the rim. It can pull the bars and effectively "stand up". Doesn't really apply to leisurely GS riding advice, and probably won't happen on a standard wheeled GS.

Here's my advice to the OP:

1. Use both brakes. This isn't a track day. This isn't super sticky rubber on a 180mph straight. This is crappy rubber on a crappy road with crappy suspension going 35mph. Somebody fresh out of flat track school might tell you the only way to turn is with the rear brake; again, this isn't a clay oval, use both brakes.

3. Loosen up your body. Loosen up your grip on the bars- that's the only way you'll be able to feel what the bike is doing. Try pushing the bike down in the corner flat track style, or the same as the police bike video. Notice that his torso stays pretty upright. Then try hanging off the bike toward the inside of the turn road race style. Move your but around on the seat. Try stuff, get a feel for it. Most people ride with their spine exactly lined up with the center of the bike. Dance with it. You're not in a car.

4. Trust your tires and look where you want to go. You'd be amazed how well even crappy tires will do.

5. Practice. There's no way you'll know what to do in an emergency situation if you don't practice getting into that situation. Use the rear until it skids. See if you can lock up the front and release it. (at your own risk). If I were you, I'd go back to that corner and ride it 20 times. There's easily 50 different combinations of technique to try. Do it once with your foot out. Try it with your crotch right up on the tank. See if you can do it downshifting and modulating the clutch only (no brakes).

I know this isn't about "advanced riding", but I learned more about braking and turning a motorcycle in 2 days with an xr100 on a clay oval than I did 20yrs of riding and racing.

Ideally, you want to do all your braking before you get to the corner and be on the gas by the time you hit the apex.

Have fun with it!

More great advice. As I said, I'm not telling anyone NOT to use their rear brake. I simply stated I don't in most situations.

The only thing that I don't necessarily agree with in the above, and again, it's a matter of opinion I suppose, are "pushing the bike away from you" in anything but parking lot speed maneuvers, and the GS tires thing.

The pushing the bike away from you is and always will be a "no-no" thing to me, as at any real speed the bike is now fighting your weight to corner. Leaning inside the chassis aids the bike in cornering, and also allows for cornering quickly without as severe a lean angle as keeping your body in-line or outboard of the corner. Pushing it away creates a higher lean angle, for longer duration and also invites the possibility of contacting hard parts with the pavement. Again, my viewpoint.

As to the tires, today GS tires are not the tires of 30 or even 15 years ago. Yes they're still bias ply, but the compounds used are much better and have way more grip. Anyone who may disagree with that, should follow guys like Brian Wringer around for a bit and you'll see just how much they can take. No, they're not ?ber-sticky radial slicks, but they're a damn sight better than the bad old days.

Also, all of this is good advice, and one piece that hasn't been addressed that I've seen is this (and I'm a firm believer in this) : No matter howhard you choose to ride, or eventually wish to, one of anyone's first priorities when they get their GS rideable should be replacing the stock suspension components with new springs, shocks and oil. And if you wish to ride hard, please please take this into consideration. The stuff out there now is ten times better than the stuff they came with and untold amounts better than the sacked out crap that's on em now. Suspension and tires are what keep our butts attached to the road.
And they work hand in hand. You'd be amazed at the confidence that decent suspension and good tires can instil in you AND the bike.
Personally I would sooner spend thousands of dollars on upgrading suspension before spending a dollar on adding any power to these bikes.Again just my viewpoint.

 

[pmong]

Pmong,

Since you are re-learning riding, I'd recommend that you take the time to actively brush up your skills. Pick up Lee Park's book "Total Control" and give it a very thorough read. He explains in good detail, proper techniques for faster, and safer street riding. The book is easy and fun to read, and will really help your riding skills improve. It definitely helped me. It's also pretty cheap on amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Total-Control-Performance-Street-Techniques/dp/0760314039

Appreciate the suggestion, and will take a look. Finished reading "Proficient Motorcycling" by David Hough. Reinforces much of what I learned in my motorcycle class, plus a couple of new things. Nice accessible reading.

I am following the other threads on possible rear braking, but not knowledgeable enough to comment. Been a helpful thread.

Thanks everyone.

 

[pmong]

25 yrs street riding
20 yrs off road riding/racing
10 yrs road racing
7 yrs Supermoto Racing
7 yrs MX
3 yrs flat track racing
RR instructor, SM instructor, many schools, American Supercamp Graduate.

Hard front braking leaned over can straighten the bike up. Totally depends on the type of bike, tire profile, bike geometry, lean angle, speed, etc. Imagine a wide, "not pointy" front tire with the bike leaned way over right at the edge of the tire, almost on the rim. It can pull the bars and effectively "stand up". Doesn't really apply to leisurely GS riding advice, and probably won't happen on a standard wheeled GS.

Here's my advice to the OP:

1. Use both brakes. This isn't a track day. This isn't super sticky rubber on a 180mph straight. This is crappy rubber on a crappy road with crappy suspension going 35mph. Somebody fresh out of flat track school might tell you the only way to turn is with the rear brake; again, this isn't a clay oval, use both brakes.

3. Loosen up your body. Loosen up your grip on the bars- that's the only way you'll be able to feel what the bike is doing. Try pushing the bike down in the corner flat track style, or the same as the police bike video. Notice that his torso stays pretty upright. Then try hanging off the bike toward the inside of the turn road race style. Move your but around on the seat. Try stuff, get a feel for it. Most people ride with their spine exactly lined up with the center of the bike. Dance with it. You're not in a car.

4. Trust your tires and look where you want to go. You'd be amazed how well even crappy tires will do.

5. Practice. There's no way you'll know what to do in an emergency situation if you don't practice getting into that situation. Use the rear until it skids. See if you can lock up the front and release it. (at your own risk). If I were you, I'd go back to that corner and ride it 20 times. There's easily 50 different combinations of technique to try. Do it once with your foot out. Try it with your crotch right up on the tank. See if you can do it downshifting and modulating the clutch only (no brakes).

I know this isn't about "advanced riding", but I learned more about braking and turning a motorcycle in 2 days with an xr100 on a clay oval than I did 20yrs of riding and racing.

Ideally, you want to do all your braking before you get to the corner and be on the gas by the time you hit the apex.

Have fun with it!

This is all good advice. Given my current level of skill (low), my intent is always to scrub off speed before entering a curve, even more so going downhill. Not an issue in almost all cases, but I did seriously misjudge that particular road, so too hot for me. As I mentioned, the bike got through it fine, showing more capacity than me. The experience taught me that I need to practice, perhaps with some additional techniques.

The good thing was I did not panic, a little tight by not immobilized. I did tell myself almost immediately to add in some countersteering and a little, very little throttle despite going downhill. What I was not sure about after the ride was whether that was the correct or best response.

Yes, I do intend to go back to road again, and again, although finding the time is not easy. Repeated encounters have been my habit on other roads, and with improvement, familiarity and confidence, I push the bike a little more each time, but never to a crazy edge. Knowing what to practice is the key, so this thread has given much to consider.

Mainly a leisurely rider who want to ride decently, with additional margin of skill when I encounter a problem so I can stay safe.

 

[pmong]

The only thing that I don't necessarily agree with in the above, and again, it's a matter of opinion I suppose, are "pushing the bike away from you" in anything but parking lot speed maneuvers, and the GS tires thing.

The pushing the bike away from you is and always will be a "no-no" thing to me, as at any real speed the bike is now fighting your weight to corner. Leaning inside the chassis aids the bike in cornering, and also allows for cornering quickly without as severe a lean angle as keeping your body in-line or outboard of the corner. Pushing it away creates a higher lean angle, for longer duration and also invites the possibility of contacting hard parts with the pavement. Again, my viewpoint.

Interesting. One of the things I have been practicing a little is slow speed maneuvers, early in the morning in a parking lot before other workers arrive. Up on the pegs and leaning the bike under me. Great for very tight turns, and I am getting the hang of it. But like you say, just for slow speeds.

I will have to try shifting my body off the center line to learn how that affects the amount of lean. Will start easy until I get a sense of things. Unfortunately, I don't have much time to practice given a very busy work and family schedule.

Getting a long "to do" list, but a very useful one.

 

[cowboyup3371]

I can't add anything to this as I'm still learning and know I have a long ways to go to get the experience of folks like TCK, Griffin, BWringer, Tkent and a few others. I will say the one thing I'm really starting to learn as I ride with TCK who makes some of these roads look like they're as straight as can be -


RIDE YOUR RIDE

Seriously, do what feels right for you and don't worry about how someone else is doing them. You know your limits and your experience level better than anyone else here. You know your bike better than anyone and will understand how it reacts to any situation. Use that knowledge to practice the items you know needs work and then go from there.

 

[7981GS]

One thing that IS VERY IMPORTANT to think about and know:
both of your tires are never on the same piece of real estate at the same time.
Meaning that if your front tire is on a patch of sand/snow/ice/gravel and the rear tire is on clean pavement or vic a versa,
wouldn't you like for at least ONE of them doing their job at stopping?

If you are only applying ONE of the brakes and that ONE happens to be on sand/snow/ice/gravel,
you ARE going down!

Eric

 

[keman]

#4... LOOK WHERE YOU WANT TO GO!!

Object (danger) fixation is a dead KILLER. If you are looking at the car coming the other way when you are on the edge of control, your body will naturally take you where you are looking and you will crash!@!

Look through the corner to where you are wanting to be. Keep the world in you perrefrial vision, so as to "see" dangers, but focus on the out.

Years ago, I did a driver's training on skidpad and evasive driving for a security firm I worked for. One of the most amazing tests was object fixation.

They placed a single cone in the center of the ice pad, and had us drive toward it at 35. the object was to avoid the cone at the last moment. First pass we were instructed to watch the cone... 99% of us hit the cone.
While looking at the cone on ice, I simply could not manage to control the slide to avoid it. I tried this several times. I know, it sounds simple... there's a cone, you know it's there, look at it, but don't hit it...

Next set of runs we were instructed to avoid the cone at the last moment, but to never look at the cone, rather we were to look ahead at our path out... Guess what. Not one driver hit the cone... Not even me. It felt almost surreal that I could not look at it and avoid it, yet by not looking at it, it was almost like I couldn't hit it if I tried.

 

[keman]

Looking at the out instead of the car turning left in front of you may just save your life someday. You will see the car, you will know it is the primary danger. So.... STOP looking at it!! LOOK for your out instead.


I have done this both ways in the years past... one way ended badly for my bike. Lucky for me, I was not badly injured. Then I learned this lesson.

Look where you want to go, not where you don't.

 

[TheCafeKid]

One thing that IS VERY IMPORTANT to think about and know:
both of your tires are never on the same piece of real estate at the same time.
Meaning that if your front tire is on a patch of sand/snow/ice/gravel and the rear tire is on clean pavement or vic a versa,
wouldn't you like for at least ONE of them doing their job at stopping?

If you are only applying ONE of the brakes and that ONE happens to be on sand/snow/ice/gravel,
you ARE going down!

Eric

Unless there's a car in my lane, a deer or some other "object of impact" if either one of my wheels is in or will cross gravel, snow (I personally don't ride in snow..the older I get the less tolerant my joints are to cold, so if it's cold enough to snow of freeze, call me a wuss but I ain't riddin ) wet painted lines, wet man hole covers etc, I'm not touching either brake or the throttle. If there is something in my path I need to avoid, I'll decide before I hit such a surface whether I plan to evade, or stop if possible.

Any one of us can sit here and type away at the "things we would do" given a certain situation. But unless it's happened before, no one of us can actually say what we'd do until it happens. When something like that occurs, you, or I or anyone with a good deal of experience will likely revert to instinct. The trick is to re-train your instincts to be correct for riding a motorcycle, because as many of us know from experience, "natural survival instinct" is often the WRONG thing to do on a bike. They usually include such things as rolling out of the throttle when you are wide in a corner where you SHOULD be adding a touch and leaning it harder to suck the bike back into the turn. Trying to brake HARD (with either or both brakes) while layed over deep instead of standing the bike up some before braking. And of course, looking at the thing you want to avoid (ie edge of the road, car, deer, log...what have you) instead of looking to your escape route.

For me, and probably for a lot of us, the reason riding a motorcycle is so damn amazing is partly because you're putting yourself out there. Hurtling through space without the false sense of security a cage of plastic and steel gives you. Your senses are wide open and your brain is processing and carrying out thousands of inputs a minute, from minute steering corrections, so minuscule throttle opening adjustments, a touch of a brake, picking up any untoward movement out of the corner of your eyes, calculating speed, closing distance, required braking force, angle of lean, etc etc.
It's almost primal. In an era of man where we have become so reliant on automated this and computer controlled that, we've become lazier and lazier. On a bike, it's just you, the bike, and your surroundings. And it's on you to stay alive and enjoy the thrill of pushing the boundaries of gravity and physics.

It makes being alive even more awesome.

 

[tkent02]

If you are only applying ONE of the brakes and that ONE happens to be on sand/snow/ice/gravel,
you ARE going down!

Unless you have the ability to release the brake a little as it goes over the sand/snow/ice/gravel.
Not all of us crash whenever we see this stuff.

 

[pmong]

#4... LOOK WHERE YOU WANT TO GO!!

Object (danger) fixation is a dead KILLER. If you are looking at the car coming the other way when you are on the edge of control, your body will naturally take you where you are looking and you will crash!@!

Look through the corner to where you are wanting to be. Keep the world in you perrefrial vision, so as to "see" dangers, but focus on the out.

Years ago, I did a driver's training on skidpad and evasive driving for a security firm I worked for. One of the most amazing tests was object fixation.

They placed a single cone in the center of the ice pad, and had us drive toward it at 35. the object was to avoid the cone at the last moment. First pass we were instructed to watch the cone... 99% of us hit the cone.
While looking at the cone on ice, I simply could not manage to control the slide to avoid it. I tried this several times. I know, it sounds simple... there's a cone, you know it's there, look at it, but don't hit it...

Next set of runs we were instructed to avoid the cone at the last moment, but to never look at the cone, rather we were to look ahead at our path out... Guess what. Not one driver hit the cone... Not even me. It felt almost surreal that I could not look at it and avoid it, yet by not looking at it, it was almost like I couldn't hit it if I tried.

Thanks for the advice. I know something about object fixation. When I learned to ride a bicycle, my first crash was right into a pole that I could not take my eyes off. I still have a bad habit of doing so now and then while on the motorcycle, but always am able to look away eventually. Am getting better with practice and more miles.

Side note. 99% hitting the cone is amazing. Shows that most riders can be fairly precise with their motorcycle, although for the wrong reason. Guess that is a second lesson from the exercise, that is, you can really control the bike. Now, only to put it into productive use.

Also, good point about left turning cars. I now do NOT assume that the driver will wait for me to go through. I am also getting better about having two fingers on my front brakes when I see a vehicle on my right in a driveway, alley, or other possible entry. Too many either do not see me or assume they can pull out in front of me.

 

[pmong]

For me, and probably for a lot of us, the reason riding a motorcycle is so damn amazing is partly because you're putting yourself out there. Hurtling through space without the false sense of security a cage of plastic and steel gives you. Your senses are wide open and your brain is processing and carrying out thousands of inputs a minute, from minute steering corrections, so minuscule throttle opening adjustments, a touch of a brake, picking up any untoward movement out of the corner of your eyes, calculating speed, closing distance, required braking force, angle of lean, etc etc.

It's almost primal. In an era of man where we have become so reliant on automated this and computer controlled that, we've become lazier and lazier. On a bike, it's just you, the bike, and your surroundings. And it's on you to stay alive and enjoy the thrill of pushing the boundaries of gravity and physics.

It makes being alive even more awesome.

Good description about the difference between riding and driving. I try very hard to be an active observer while on the bike, but not easy because it is hard to process so much input, particularly in congested urban areas. I often remind myself to look around and ahead for possible dangers. I hope that at some point, it will just be second nature.

 

[pmong]

Unless you have the ability to release the brake a little as it goes over the sand/snow/ice/gravel.
Not all of us crash whenever we see this stuff.

Don't have snow or ice around here in Southern California, but certainly sand. Encountered some while riding close to the coast, but nothing challenging because was going straight with relatively light traffic.

Do people practice dealing with this stuff? If so, how?

 

[tkent02]

Do people practice dealing with this stuff? If so, how?

By riding in it. A lot.

 

[pmong]

Another challenge, painted strip versus puddle?

Another challenge, painted strip versus puddle?

One thing about accumulating mileage is encountering new challenges. One morning I was forced to take an alternative route downhill because the usual route was closed for repair. Not having been on that road, was careful to slow before entering.

About half way into a left sweeping curve, sat a puddle of water. Saw it far enough ahead not to require any sudden action, but still wanted to go around. Could go wider, but that would put the bike closer to the cliff. Or could go tighter, which would force the bike over the middle strip. From reading and experience, knew that paint offers less traction. Decided to cut across the middle strip since no oncoming traffic, making it through without any problem.

In mentally reviewing the decision after the ride, I think I should have taken the other option. The fear of the cliff may have played too big of a role in the decision.

Any thoughts?

 

[tkent02]

Puddles, usually no big deal unless at hydroplaning speeds, or leaned way over in a turn, except you can't see the surface underneath. I bent a wheel on a big pot hole that could not be seen under a small puddle, this was just pulling out of a parking lot onto a street, maybe 5mph. Huge hole.

Nothing wrong with crossing the line if you can see there's no traffic coming, nothing wrong with slowing enough to go around the cliff side safely either.

There is no wrong decision, as long as it worked out OK.