Back off 1/4 or no on head retorque

[Agemax]

Probably only 16V 1100 cylinder oil passage pattern

nope, 8v 1085cc conversion for the GS1000, with APE high volume oil pump

 

[posplayr]

nope, 8v 1085cc conversion for the GS1000, with APE high volume oil pump

I meant the tooling issue probably only applies to the 16V GS1100. Next possibility is the 1150. Possible but doubtful any of the others. I'm not sure 16V 750 heads/cylinders swap with a 16V 1100/1150.

Apparently your 8V is excempt.

 

[49er]

Do you agree?
If it already leaks like a sieve on the first tourque what's next?

Bill, if it's leaking like a sieve, a re-torque won't fix it! As Pos has said, it appears that the 4 valve Cometic head gaskets may have a flaw in their design, or tuners have been using the wrong sized gasket for their applications. I don't wish to get too deep into that argument, but it really is up to the engine builder to check the integrity of the mating surfaces and gaskets they use, for correct alignment.

The only time that I would abide by Cometic's suggestion that a re-torque isn't necessary would be if I fitted a MLS base gasket as well. Most times, the base gasket is of paper design which will give during continuous heat cycles, hence the need for re-torquing.

 

[posplayr]

I don't wish to get too deep into that argument, but it really is up to the engine builder to check the integrity of the mating surfaces and gaskets they use, for correct alignment.

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Now You really have gone and done it!!!

 

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Tightening in stages is common practice for cylinder heads. Suzuki doesn't mention this is the service manual though (for the GS1000 anyway).

OK. I keep forgetting we're talking specifically about torquing a head and multiple bolts. Yes, then it's obvious to torque in increments.
I made the mistake of thinking that torquing method involved a single bolt.

 

[tejasmud]

Torque in increments?

Y'all is just makin this too hard.

Just whip out the handy multi-spindle torque drive machine bench, align the guns and clamp them in place, adjust the torque to the level desired on the computer screen, and press the button. Once all the guns click and the green lights come on for each gun after torque verification, good to go.

Probably what they do in assembly, which made me think.

Would one suppose Suzuki built all these motorcycle engines, installed them into each chassis, took each one of them out for drive for 600 miles, then after returning to the factory did a re-torque of the head bolts?

Naaa......

Or, would it be part of the service involved after someone purchased one of these machines of the showroom floor, and was supposed to bring it in for that initial after the first 600 mile service (or however long) appointment at the dealer?

All original owners have this done, and the mechanics at the dealer actually do this, right?

Errrr.....doubt that approach too….

I bet they "set it and forget it."

Well, given the engineers did their homework in understanding the amount of compression set their gaskets would take under the torque applied to the new bolts and actually temperature cycled the engine in R&D.

Sounds more manufacturable that way.

 

[49er]

Torque in increments?

Y'all is just makin this too hard.

Just whip out the handy multi-spindle torque drive machine bench, align the guns and clamp them in place, adjust the torque to the level desired on the computer screen, and press the button. Once all the guns click and the green lights come on for each gun after torque verification, good to go.

Probably what they do in assembly, which made me think.

Would one suppose Suzuki built all these motorcycle engines, installed them into each chassis, took each one of them out for drive for 600 miles, then after returning to the factory did a re-torque of the head bolts?

Naaa......

Or, would it be part of the service involved after someone purchased one of these machines of the showroom floor, and was supposed to bring it in for that initial after the first 600 mile service (or however long) appointment at the dealer?

All original owners have this done, and the mechanics at the dealer actually do this, right?

Errrr.....doubt that approach too….

I bet they "set it and forget it."

Well, given the engineers did their homework in understanding the amount of compression set their gaskets would take under the torque applied to the new bolts and actually temperature cycled the engine in R&D.

Sounds more manufacturable that way.

Some truth here.

However, Suzuki R & R would have factored that restricting their GS engines CR to around 8.8-1 to 9 -1 would help to control upper running cylinder pressures and temps. As a consequence, the resultant heat cycles would be less likely to cause severe crushing of the gaskets (head and base). Their OEM composite designed head gaskets are also more forgiving of metal movement during heat cycling.

All heads fitted with composite gaskets, should be re-torqued after ? kms. This figure varies, depending on which school of thought you follow. Some will say after 3-5 heat cycles, which could range over 50 - 2000 kms. These gaskets will give more over the initial heat cycles. The heat cycle method is really important on engines that are running after market, ultra high comp pistons.

The manufacturer did insist that new owners of our GS's, return their bikes to a designated franchised garage for a number of services. The first one was when the head was scheduled for a re-torque. They were pedantic enough about this procedure to the point of negating any warranty if the owner neglected to follow the servicing requirements. I think that speaks volumes of what their R&R people knew.

 

[Agemax]

i worked for honda in the 80's and not one service involved a head retorque. even any engine that blew for what ever reason that came in for a rebuild was not required to come in for a head retorque to guarantee their warranty on the engine rebuild

 

[49er]

i worked for honda in the 80's and not one service involved a head retorque. even any engine that blew for what ever reason that came in for a rebuild was not required to come in for a head retorque to guarantee their warranty on the engine rebuild

Honda eh! What were the common reasons for a rebuild, back in the day?

 

[Agemax]

Honda eh! What were the common reasons for a rebuild, back in the day?

bad valves and failing valve rocker assemblies mainly. plus the odd piston failure. th first v4 750's were in every week lol

 

[trippivot]

these engines were all run and heated up BEFORE they ever were installed into the frame. filled and drained of oil. yes re-torqued after heat cycle

this is my air cooled procedure. not for for liquid cooled engines.

I do not loosen and retorque - unless there is a specific instruction to do so- and I can not remember when. ANY compression sealing problem and it usually leads to taking the head back off. oil leaks are expected with copper gaskets head or base.

1 wave finger tight
2 wave 10 - 15 lb/ft
3 wave 25 30 lb / ft
4 wave final torque spec. and depending on the stud mfg. 35, 38, 40, 42? arp lube if necessary.

heat up completely and let fully cool - re torque to final torque spec. just to check if any nut/bolt takes a little more to get tight. I re-torque all the 6X1 case cover bolts too.

 

[49er]

bad valves and failing valve rocker assemblies mainly. plus the odd piston failure. th first v4 750's were in every week lol

Some of the early Honda OHC singles had oil feed problems to the cam bearings too, or were their clearances just too close.

 

[Agemax]

these engines were all run and heated up BEFORE they ever were installed into the frame. filled and drained of oil. yes re-torqued after heat cycle

this is my air cooled procedure. not for for liquid cooled engines.

I do not loosen and retorque - unless there is a specific instruction to do so- and I can not remember when. ANY compression sealing problem and it usually leads to taking the head back off. oil leaks are expected with copper gaskets head or base.

1 wave finger tight
2 wave 10 - 15 lb/ft
3 wave 25 30 lb / ft
4 wave final torque spec. and depending on the stud mfg. 35, 38, 40, 42? arp lube if necessary.

heat up completely and let fully cool - re torque to final torque spec. just to check if any nut/bolt takes a little more to get tight. I re-torque all the 6X1 case cover bolts too.

no they are not. they come off the production line ready built and as stated before bolted up by pneumatic guns to a preset torque, and thats how they stay till they leave the factory into your nearest showroom.
i know i have been to the honda factory and seen it in action :dancing:

 

[salty_monk]

A lot of the European cars have this "set rotation" fastening guide for torque. Some even specify a low torque value with a, then rotate 90 degrees plus or something similar.

Dan

 

[TheCafeKid]

ok, You guys are NERDS! I look at it this way.. Incremental initial torque of the head nuts. As perscribed and what ive learned in my short years of wrenching. Makes sense. Common sense. If it doesnt, dont wrench on it.. anyway, 3-500 miles in, recheck. Now, I made a mistake on the last motor i rebuilt (sorry MRiddle..i still want to fix it damnit, and wish you'd let me! ) but that was a ring alignment problem. My fault. BUT, between Steve and I, Ive put quite a few STREET GOING GS motors back together and never once had a problem with a head gasket leak. Vesrah, Cometic (sucks) Athena, whatever.. their orings leak, but the gasket itself? Meh. Now, Im not building high comp, extra heavy HP race motors, so I dont know what im talking about there, but, without going into the insane physics, thermal dynamics, and friction loads, etc etc, it seems to make sense to torque incrementally, recheck later, and torque as necessary. Ive never gone into it this much, and as such, it certainly makes it sound more complex than in my lay opinion, it needs to be for a friggin street bike. If it was blueprinted, sure, but even in the tight confines of Suzuki's design, it sounds like splitting hairs...

And BTW, you have it mixed up: In light spectrum, WHITE is the combination of ALL colours of the spectrum. Black is the absense of all colours, or all light, period.
In pigment, white is ZERO colour, and black is EVERY colour...

 

[Agemax]

ok, You guys are NERDS! I look at it this way.. Incremental initial torque of the head nuts. As perscribed and what ive learned in my short years of wrenching. Makes sense. Common sense. If it doesnt, dont wrench on it.. anyway, 3-500 miles in, recheck. Now, I made a mistake on the last motor i rebuilt (sorry MRiddle..i still want to fix it damnit, and wish you'd let me! ) but that was a ring alignment problem. My fault. BUT, between Steve and I, Ive put quite a few STREET GOING GS motors back together and never once had a problem with a head gasket leak. Vesrah, Cometic (sucks) Athena, whatever.. their orings leak, but the gasket itself? Meh. Now, Im not building high comp, extra heavy HP race motors, so I dont know what im talking about there, but, without going into the insane physics, thermal dynamics, and friction loads, etc etc, it seems to make sense to torque incrementally, recheck later, and torque as necessary. Ive never gone into it this much, and as such, it certainly makes it sound more complex than in my lay opinion, it needs to be for a friggin street bike. If it was blueprinted, sure, but even in the tight confines of Suzuki's design, it sounds like splitting hairs...

And BTW, you have it mixed up: In light spectrum, WHITE is the combination of ALL colours of the spectrum. Black is the absense of all colours, or all light, period.
In pigment, white is ZERO colour, and black is EVERY colour...

and you are the best motorcycle mechanic ever to grace gods earth?

 

[TheCafeKid]

and you are the best motorcycle mechanic ever to grace gods earth?

Well. Yeah! Duh!

 

[Nessism]

i worked for honda in the 80's and not one service involved a head retorque. even any engine that blew for what ever reason that came in for a rebuild was not required to come in for a head retorque to guarantee their warranty on the engine rebuild

The Suzuki GS engines are some of the most durable from the period and Suzuki recommends re-torquing the head at 600 miles and then every time the valves are adjusted. Is it necessary? Maybe not but it certainly doesn't hurt.

With regards to what manufacturers do inside the factory, you guys don't know other maybe what someone saw inside one factory so please don't claim to know what happens industry wide.

 

[posplayr]

Blissful ignorance ZONE:

******* DO NOT PROCEED BEyOND THIS POINT ************

real world

 

[tejasmud]

Nerds?

Real World.



This stuff is cool. I have worked with it looking at gasketed surfaces and force measurement. Expensive, but fun to play with.

http://www.sensorprod.com/pressurex.php





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