Conventional "RACING" oil or not???

[JEEPRUSTY]

Aside from the grammar error in this statement does anyone have trouble believing that a process used to test used oils is any less accurate than one for fresh stuff.

In an effort to clarify any misconception about our product we did our own testing and sent three virgin oil samples (each from the same identical batch) to both Blackstone Lab and Southwest Research Lab for testing. All three Southwest sample results were completely in line with our internal specifications/analysis. The Blackstone zinc and phosphorus results in all three analysis were lower than our internal specifications/analysis and Southwest Research?s lab results. The results for both the Blackstone and Southwest Research analysis are listed below:
Brad Penn Product Blackstone Southwest Research
Penn Grade 1 zinc 1,214 ppm zinc 1,540 ppm
20W-50 #7119 phos 944 ppm phos 1,319 ppm
Penn Grade 1 zinc 1,424 ppm zinc 1,565 ppm
10W-30 #7150 phos 1,139 ppm phos 1,332 ppm
Brad Penn PCMO zinc 689 ppm zinc 1,051 ppm
20W-50 SJ #7123* phos 522 ppm phos 901 ppm
*In some cases we feel our PCMO SAE 20W-50 was sent in for analysis (and not the High Performance Oil SAE 20W-50) which does contain lower Zinc and Phosphorous additive concentration levels.
The difference in results between Blackstone and SRI can be explained by a difference in methodology in analyzing the samples and not differences in the formulation. Blackstone employed measurement techniques more generally employed in analyzing used oils, while SRI employed methods more usually utilized for new multigrade engine oils. The samples provided to both labs were new oils. New oils that have not been subjected to shear often require higher dilution rates in the elemental analysis measured by ICP (Inductively Coupled Plasma) as indicated in method ASTM D5185.

 

[JEEPRUSTY]

I have Hijacked the thread, Turned it into an oil thread and been a grammar nazi all in one post.

Bow to me!

 

[dagreatgatsby]

I don't think you need to buy "racing oil" or even "motorcycle oil". According to Peter Verdone (knowledgeable guy) and Motorcycle News Consumer, the correct car motor oil can be used on motorcycles. Just make sure that the bottle doesn't say "resources conserving". Read this and see what I mean:

http://www.peterverdone.com/archive/motoroil.htm

and

http://www.ducatimeccanica.com/oil.html

 

[Nessism]

I don't think you need to buy "racing oil" or even "motorcycle oil". According to Peter Verdone (knowledgeable guy) and Motorcycle News Consumer, the correct car motor oil can be used on motorcycles. Just make sure that the bottle doesn't say "resources conserving". Read this and see what I mean:

http://www.peterverdone.com/archive/motoroil.htm

and

http://www.ducatimeccanica.com/oil.html

Modern auto oil has greatly reduced high pressure additives like zinc and phosphorus compared to older formulations, and diesel oil. It's a bad choice for GS bikes.

 

[dagreatgatsby]

Nessism, it sounds like what you're saying is that we need zinc and phosphorus in our motor oil. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the information I gleaned from reading these articles is that we don't want zinc or phosphorus in our oil. I understand that zinc and phosphorus has cleaning properties but is also what causes the sludge. Therefore, in "racing oils", there is added zinc, phosphorus, and other additives but only because it is frequently changed. However, road bikes don't get oil changes as often and the extra zinc and phosphorus would actually be detrimental. And, also, it seems friction modifiers in racing oils are harmful to wet clutches. So, wouldn't it be okay to use "basic" synthetic car motor oil in our bikes?

 

[Nessism]

Nessism, it sounds like what you're saying is that we need zinc and phosphorus in our motor oil. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the information I gleaned from reading these articles is that we don't want zinc or phosphorus in our oil. I understand that zinc and phosphorus has cleaning properties but is also what causes the sludge. Therefore, in "racing oils", there is added zinc, phosphorus, and other additives but only because it is frequently changed. However, road bikes don't get oil changes as often and the extra zinc and phosphorus would actually be detrimental. And, also, it seems friction modifiers in racing oils are harmful to wet clutches. So, wouldn't it be okay to use "basic" synthetic car motor oil in our bikes?

Motor oil is a combination of base oil + additive package. Without additives the oil would be ill-suited for use in an engine. Zinc and Phosphorus are additives to protect metal parts from coming in contact with each other in high pressure areas. Parts like the transmission gears and camshafts need this zinc and phosphorus to reduce wear in the engine.

These high pressure additives work great at reducing wear, but they are bad for catalytic converters, thus the newer oil formulations have far less zinc and phosphorus then oils of old. This is why it's best to use diesel or motorcycle oil in your GS. These oils have more of these additives and offer better protection which equates to less wear.

 

[1_v8_merc]

Was there some kind of "oil forensics" class that I missed in high school?

Just put ****in diesel oil in the thing and Go! lol

 

[dagreatgatsby]

I've found another article called "the truth about motorcycle oils":

http://www.post610.org/truth_about_motorcycle_oils.htm

It basically says that Nessism is right regarding the fact that zinc and phosphorus provides engine protection. But it also mentions that the right car oil can be used in motorcycles. Especially the 10w40 and 20w50 weights because those weights are exempt from the new API standards and may contain more zinc and phosphorus than the 5w30 oils. Well, I just bought a bunch of Valvoline 20w50 synthetic oil for 50% off at O'Reilly's and am reluctant to return it. I'm going to try it out.

 

[Guest]

I've found another article called "the truth about motorcycle oils":

http://www.post610.org/truth_about_motorcycle_oils.htm

It basically says that Nessism is right regarding the fact that zinc and phosphorus provides engine protection. But it also mentions that the right car oil can be used in motorcycles. Especially the 10w40 and 20w50 weights because those weights are exempt from the new API standards and may contain more zinc and phosphorus than the 5w30 oils. Well, I just bought a bunch of Valvoline 20w50 synthetic oil for 50% off at O'Reilly's and am reluctant to return it. I'm going to try it out.

Very good article. That makes me happy with my choice of oil for my bike. Royal Purple MX 10w-40 with a K&N oil filter. Hmm maybe I can get rid of those 1100 clutch springs?

 

[Agemax]

watch this video. i am not sure if it is a load of promotional bu11$h1t or how much truth is in it. it is very interesting regarding "racing" oil........

http://www.brocksperformance.com/brocknm/templates/bpp1.aspx?articleid=432&zoneid=22

 

[chuck hahn]

So, what Im am gathering, is that I can run full synthetic car oil in the bikes as long as they do no have added friction modifiers. SH or SJ rating. Or just stay with the H4 Honda synthetic blend racing oil.

 

[rustybronco]

Chuck, I ran Amsoil 20w50 in my old 850 with no issues and it wasn't a MC specific engine oil.

 

[chuck hahn]

Dale...I am running Valvoline 10W40 Conventional in the GSs and have had no issues as of yet. I started the thread for finding that one stand out "superior" oil for in the Yamaha TX750. Since its a running bike..and rather rare at that..I want the most protection I can give that bikes engine and clutches. Seeing that all the old cycle mags on the bike point to the oil foaming and causing the internal problems, then thats the issue i am wanting to prevent. I guess maybe the more important way to have phrased the question is this. Are todays regular oils formulated with anti foaming agents or do I need to stick to a racing oil? Secondly, is there any real advantage as far as "racing" oil formulations VS "regular" formulations.

 

[rustybronco]

Dale...I am running Valvoline 10W40 Conventional in the GSs and have had no issues as of yet. I started the thread for finding that one stand out "superior" oil for in the Yamaha TX750. Since its a running bike..and rather rare at that..I want the most protection I can give that bikes engine and clutches. Seeing that all the old cycle mags on the bike point to the oil foaming and causing the internal problems, then thats the issue i am wanting to prevent. I guess maybe the more important way to have phrased the question is this. Are todays regular oils formulated with anti foaming agents or do I need to stick to a racing oil? Secondly, is there any real advantage as far as "racing" oil formulations VS "regular" formulations.

Chuck, this is my un-official / non scientific OPINION. If you want an oil that is very shear stable and SHOULD work for your intended purpose, if it were mine I would put Amsoil in it. Again this is just my OPINION from having used it in the past.

Amsoil is also going into my GS1000E when I'm finished with it.

I have no experience with brad penn to offer an opinion of it.

I don't know if you ever be able to come up with an oil that is head and shoulders above the rest as there are quite a few good oils out there...

 

[chuck hahn]

I understand Dale...The standout issue is the foaming cause by the counter balancers for the crank....whatever oil i use as the constant must be able to avoid this frothing action.

 

[Nessism]

GS engines, particularly the 8V versions, are quite durable in terms of internal wear, other than some rocker arm and cam wear on the 16V engines (particularly the 2nd generation 750). The zinc and phosphorus is what helps protect these high pressure points inside the engine, and that's why I don't recommend auto oil (about 1/3 less zinc and phosphorus than diesel oil). It's not that auto oil is going to cause your engine noticeable problems, but there may be an incremental increase in wear that will manifest itself as miles accumulate. You may never keep the bike long enough for this to become a problem, but why use auto oil when diesel engine oil is better and just as cheap?

My reference to auto oil applies to Amsoil and all auto oils. My personal belief is that Amsoil is some of the best oil going, but I'd much rather use the motorcycle or diesel engine grade in my bike compared to the auto grade.

 

[chuck hahn]

ED...I totally understand that from all the other posts. The ISSUE back in the day with these engines was frothing caused by the counter balancers whipping up the hot oil. I was "told" racing oil has "special anti foaming agents" added that regular conventional oils do not...I want clarification on this anti foaming stuff sspecifically. I also understand from other posts that synthetics and synthetic blends are ok also...but what about all this anti foaming technology stuff...thats the question. This is a bit of a different animal that the GS.

 

[rustybronco]

Chuck, the additive packages that are in today's oils are LIGHT years ahead of what was available back when that bike was made. So pick a good semi- or full synthetic oil such as Rotella 5w40 (group 3 oil) or Amsoil (group 4) and don't look back.

Other than that, I'd suggest calling one of the major oil companies and ask them for their recommendations.

 

[koolaid_kid]

Chuck, I looked around on the web and the general consensus is that all diesel oils contain anti-foaming agents as a matter of course.

Here is a quote from one web page: "Oil for the PowerStroke requires an anti-foaming agent to prevent the oil from aerating, which would result in poor fuel injector spray patterns and reduced power. Depending on vehicle usage, the anti-foaming agents are depleted in 3000-5000 miles."

I suggest this is true for all diesel motors, not just Ford, and the same for the oils, as all diesel engines are similar.

 

[rustybronco]

One more suggestion.

Take an oil sample and have it sent off to a place like Blackstone to have a baseline done on it. Then it's a simple matter to have the oil tested from time to time to use as a comparison. That should put your mind at ease.

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/free-test-kits.php