Crankcase Scavenging

[Anonymous]

ahh yes forgot about the cam chain being right in the path of the vent tube.
although there are still street legal cars with very impressive HP numbers that still contain the emissions equipment.
I like to think outside the box a lot

 

[scotty]

Hey Scotty

Yeap, I'm using the number 1 carb (38CV's) to operate the fuel petcock.

Long time no hear?

I was wondering if the stock valve supplies enough fuel when you are wide open??

My bike is on the lift for weeks Jake. I started to change the timing chain and mess with the valves but i had the accident with the kZ1300 in the interim. I am also having a 6' wide double door installed on my recently extended Florida room so i can roll all the bikes inside and still have room to move around. Last week i ran across a 5X8.5 foot enclosed trailer that looks like new.
Well i have to wrap up all these loose ends so I can get back to living again.
What i was getting at was that the stock cams have a bit of a ridge on them so i have decided to replace them. I am wondering if the followers will show wear to the point of needing replacement.
Thats the ball of wax Jake.

 

[RacingJake]

I was wondering if the stock valve supplies enough fuel when you are wide open??

That's a good question, when doing a static it flows great...... under load??

As for rockers I don't know, maybe a shop can check them.

Hope your're doing OK

 

[scotty]

I was wondering if the stock valve supplies enough fuel when you are wide open??

That's a good question, when doing a static it flows great...... under load??

As for rockers I don't know, maybe a shop can check them.

Hope your're doing OK

i fine jake. just keep that sportster locked up in case i find out where you live :lol:
Im ticked though because i was drooling over a special head complete which Murdoch racing was going to build for me and i have spent so much $$ on the other crap. well that's life :lol:

Looks like i dont get any head 8O hmmm

 

[Hap Call]

I've run the crankcase vent to a small handmade manifold that is attached to my four pod filters. I cannot tell any drop in horsepower. The amount of air that is being pulled into the carbs is so much greater than the small amount coming out of the case it really makes no difference. Remember that the crankcase hose went to the air box when Suzuki made the bike 20+ years ago.

The reason I did it was I got tired of all the oil that found its' way onto my bike due to the little hole that was necessary for the oil collection bottle. Over a period of a couple of months the rear of the bike was covered in a layer of Mobil Synth oil.


Hap

 

[gsbill]

I have not seen or heard of anyone in over 30 years of messing with bikes, who, by trying to enhance performance, has routed crankcase gases back into the engine...BTW..if you had that much oil coming out of your breather, something is/was wrong....There ya have it Jake....Obviously 2 completely opposite positions to choose from!!

Let us know which you choose and how it works.

 

[RacingJake]

Thanks guys for the info.

I'd really like to run it to the exhaust cause last year while the bike was idling i placed a red rag at the end of the V&H and it was sucked into the the pipe then blown out. Looked cool going back and forth all by itself.

So do I still need a catch can if I run it to the exhaust?

 

[Hap Call]

BTW..if you had that much oil coming out of your breather, something is/was wrong....

Wrong. Any gases coming out of the case will have vaporized oil in it. If you have ever seen a drop oil hit water and spread over a large area you would understand. I said a thin layer of oil over a period of a couple of months...it was not dripping off the bike.

In my 30 years of working on bikes I have seen every manufacturer route the crankcase gases into the air box. I will agree that it's not a performance modification but it is a living-with-day-to-day modification.

Hap

 

[gsbill]

WTF?

Hap.... I said a thin layer of oil over a period of a couple of months...it was not dripping off the bike.

Hap...Over a period of a couple of months the rear of the bike was covered in a layer of Mobil Synthoil.

If your bike is covered in a layer of oil, something is wrong.. Your words not mine....Find me one person that figures a bike covered with a thin layer of oil is OK, or "right" as we're on right & wrong here.

I'm trying to help Jake go quicker...We're not on a day to day thread here. Jakes wants to go racing! I had 2 vents on my 1150 and NEVER had an oil film anywhere on the bike, either with a catch can or without one..

Have a wonderful 4th of July!

 

[Hap Call]

WTF?

Hap.... I said a thin layer of oil over a period of a couple of months...it was not dripping off the bike.

Hap...Over a period of a couple of months the rear of the bike was covered in a layer of Mobil Synthoil.

If your bike is covered in a layer of oil, something is wrong.. Your words not mine....Find me one person that figures a bike covered with a thin layer of oil is OK, or "right" as we're on right & wrong here.

I'm trying to help Jake go quicker...We're not on a day to day thread here. Jakes wants to go racing! I had 2 vents on my 1150 and NEVER had an oil film anywhere on the bike, either with a catch can or without one..

Have a wonderful 4th of July!

Yeah...WTF!

When you have hot air containing oil and water vapor when it exiting an engine it will start to condense on a cooler surface. When you use a catch bottle you use the inner surface of the bottle as the cooler surface to condense the MAJORITY of the vapor into a liquid. The vent hole is put in there to allow the continuous flow of air/vapor mixture out of the engine. As it flows out it carries oil and water vapor that did not condense in to bottle. It will and can condense on the cooler surface of your frame if it comes into contact with it. I don't care if you've had a dozen vents on your 1150, if some crankcase gases are passing through them they are carring oil with them. Period. It's called physics...get use to it.

You are correct in say that the pistons going down causes pressure in the cases but did you forgot about the other two pistons that are traveling up at the same time creating a opposing vacuum...wait that dosen't make sense!!!?? how can that be??? Again, physics. WTF.

What causes pressure in the crankcase? Piston blow-by and valve guides leaking. Every engine has some blow-by because there is no such thing as a perfectly sealed combustion chamber on a piston engine, thus every engine has some positive crankcase pressure. WTF

As far as the cam chain slinging oil into the vent hole did you forget that there is a oil collection chamber, then a gasket with only two small holes, and finally the vent hole? Oh, I'm sure that the slinging force of the chain and the pumping of the pistons are pushing the oil out. Yeah, right.

You obviously have a greater control of the laws of physics than other mortal men.


If Jake is going for 1/4 mile times then he should just put a crankcase filter on the vent off the top of his engine. That will prevent garbage from being pulled into the engine as it cools down.

I ride my bike thousands of miles a year, have rebuilt the engine four times, have put over 250,000 miles on it since I bought it off the showroom floor and you believe you know that something is wrong with my bike? You're not as bright as you think. Averaging 60 miles a day at 75 to 80 miles an hour will cause oil vapor to pass through a collector bottle and into the atmosphere where some will deposit on the rear of the bike. I know why that happens..you don't.

WTF my a$$. :evil:

Happy 4th of July

Hap

 

[gsbill]

Hap, Why the personal attacks? I'm here to enjoy myself and maybe help others...Sorry you have such an issue with my posts...I just took your post for what it said...I dont want to argue.

The topic is well documented by very, very well known and accomplished racers and builders...I'm glad nothing is "wrong" with your bike...maybe the only issue was, that you didnt wash it often enough, hence the oil film build up...I dont expect you to care about me or my bikes or experience...

You seem vicious and defensive...I just dont get it...all because I stated that if your bike was covered with oil, something is wrong...My Goodness!

I know now that your views and more importantly, your motorcycle, are very much a way in which you measure yourself as a man and a person..so I will never again venture into discussion with you..dont want to risk it.

However I do wish you well and if you get the bug, call around to the guys racing fast bikes and do some research about crankcase scavenging...

Good day sir!

 

[lecroy]

Such a simple subject, so many ideas..... It has been fun reading it all.
Bill, you sure you drag? You know the saying, "Half the wheels twice the attitude". Your not fitting the mold .


"If Jake is going for 1/4 mile times then he should just put a crankcase filter on the vent off the top of his engine. That will prevent garbage from being pulled into the engine as it cools down."

If this were only allowed. At the track Jake runs at I am sure he could get away with it, but why bother. A 12 oz RubyRed, some holes, a zip tie and your done. Even has a nice lip for you to tie it to your frame. Very little weight as well. What more could you want? Jake, I would even drink one for you if you don't like the stuff.



2.1.2 CATCH CAN
Catch cans are mandatory on all motorcycles that do not utilize
a stock crankcase breather routing to the air box. Engines
with breather hose plumbed into a vacuum pump system also
require a catch can for catastrophic failure. The catch can
must be securely mounted. Use of suitable size hose clamps
is allowed; wire ties / zip ties are discouraged.

 

[gsbill]

 

[Hap Call]

I know now that your views and more importantly, your motorcycle, are very much a way in which you measure yourself as a man and a person..

You know nothing about me. I do know that you make statements about subjects that you know nothing about.

However I do wish you well and if you get the bug, call around to the guys racing fast bikes and do some research about crankcase scavenging...

You need to talk with the those guys...learn about inline 4 engines with 180 degree cranks and how they pressurize the case. Don't just learn that pro-stock bikes put vacuum pumps on the case...learn why they do it. You really don't understand what you are saying.

By the way, it was the "WTF" statement that set me off.

Lecroy, thanks for the clarification on the rules. I used a bottled water bottle on mine.

Hap

 

[gsbill]

An open post from Bill Fischbach:


I'd like to provide some good info in regards to crankcase venting, vacuum pumps etc., for everyones reading enjoyment! The principal applies to all 4 cycle motors, of any configuration. I hope to have GS inline bike info shortly to post. Thanks for reading!


ARC Crankcase Vacuum Systems

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BOLT ON HORSEPOWER! Precision machined from aluminum alloy, these breathers are the culmination of countless hours of R&D plus extensive bench and live testing. Do not be misled by knockoffs, they don't create the correct vacuum that increases horsepower. Do not underestimate the value of this product on a racing engine. Our dyno tests have shown a minimum 5% increase in horsepower in every motor we have tested just by bolting this thing on! Your engine becomes more efficient, especially at higher RPMs, improving acceleration and horsepower.

WE GUARANTEE AT LEAST A 5% GAIN IN HORSEPOWER!!!

Major features include:
? Eliminates vent lines and the need for catch cans.
? Helps stabilize rings for more consistency and horsepower.
? Prevents air from entering the crankcase saving horsepower.
? Helps eliminate oil leaks, blown crankcase gaskets and seals.
? Removes air from the crankcase and keeps it out, improving oil atomization and reducing drag.
? Triples oil life, saving you money and keeps the oil in the engine giving you greater protection from costly engine damage.



http://www.aerospacecomponents.com/vacp.htm
By producing high crankcase vacuum, horsepower is increased by improving ring seal and preventing blow-by, intake-charge contamination and detonation. Allows racers to run low-tension piston rings for less friction. More consistent and effective than header-mounted evacuation systems. Features billet aluminum housing, 12-AN fittings and integral mounting lugs to fit most engine applications. Parts available individually or in complete kit form.





http://www.fastbygast.com/Catagories/Products/description/vacuumii.asp


Ever wonder what that buzzing noise was coming from inside a Pro Stocker before they fired up? It's a Pro Stock secret... at least until we told everybody! That noise is coming from an electric vacuum pump. It's purpose is to evacuate the engine cases of unwanted pressures and make the piston rings seal better. The result is my favorite thing... HORSEPOWER! Well... almost my favorite thing.
Features:
Oil-less operation
Permanently lubricated bearings
Built-in cooling fan for constant use
Convenient mounting tabs
Closed housing and motor
Stainless valves and aluminum valve plate
Die cast aluminum head and diaphragm hold down plate
Balanced for smooth, low vibration operation
Long-life diaphragmHelps prevents oil leaks

GSBill...Big high HP motors(PSB motors) use GM vaccum pumps to suck any Built Pressure out of the crank case..The word is, its worth about 15 horsepower...Keep in mind this is on a 25k plus, 300hp motor.

GSBill...However I do wish you well and if you get the bug, call around to the guys racing fast bikes and do some research about crankcase scavenging...

Hap.....You need to talk with the those guys...learn about inline 4 engines with 180 degree cranks and how they pressurize the case. Don't just learn that pro-stock bikes put vacuum pumps on the case...learn why they do it. You really don't understand what you are saying.

BTW...I do get to occasionally hang out with those guys/gals.

 

[lecroy]

Some more info...

http://www.dragstuff.com/techarticles/vacuum-pumps.html

 

[Anonymous]

Currently my strret bike just has a K&N type filter on the rocker box vent. But if these pumps work would putting a hole into the exhaust to set up a venturi effect then conect the hose from the rocker box creat a big enough vacuum to make any difference :?:
Even if it was only a few Bhp it would be cheap BHP 8O

 

[gsbill]

I put a feeler out over at Dragbike.com to gather more info on this subject...I'll have more to post soon....Check back!! Thanks for reading.


More info on crankcase scavenging
http://www.dragbike.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1326



... Bill, the benefits of a vacuum system are many. You can use less ring tension and the cylinder remains dry. The rings tend to stay down when the piston changes direction. The spinning and pumping piston/rod/crank mass has much less air~oil dynamic drag. As a side bonus the outside of the engine stays dry. No one runs withot it in any of the Pro NHRA or NASCAR normally aspirated classes. When you work out all the details it's worth three or more percent power production, with an increase in efficiency. Roland Tamaccio


Next One....



Bill, A couple of years ago I was looking at putting a vacuum pump on my streetcar so I rang an engineer from Castrol to ask him what he thought about it and if it would have any detrimental effects with street driving. He told me that it would probably be advantageous as it would help reduce foaming of the oil.

A vacuum pump is definately worth Horsepower. A friend had a V8 Cleveland that would go 12.00 every run. We put a vac pump on it and it went 11.80. The next run we took the belt off and it went 12.00.

Greig

 

[Anonymous]

I've ordered the scavenging kit from summit, it's made for V8's so I'll have a spare. I hope to dyno my bike soon to get a baseline before I do this, and I will test to see if it makes any difference. If anything for my street bike it will hopefully prevent oil leaks better. I'll keep you guys posted. Still trying to get pictures of my catch-can in the making.

 

[gsbill]

Excellent!! Keep us posted....