do i need to rebuild my diy ignitor??

[60ratrod]

so the gs650 is up and running again, woot woot and what not:eagerness:. so i have replaced the bad gear, stripped and dipped the carbs, adjusted the valves, replaced the manifold o-rings, vacuum sync'd the carbs, checked the compression and all 4 were in the 150psi range, and replaced the spark plugs. so with all of this done, it's developed a hard start and a hanging idle. i've chased vacuum leaks all over and can't find one. i managed to take it for a test ride to see if there was anything else going on and to see if she went through all the gears, and found nothing but the hanging idle.

so after i got back i took a look at my header pipe temps at the first bend from the head imeadiatly after shutting down and #1 was 133, #2 was 98, #3 was 153, and #4 was 158. since #2 was so cool, i pulled the plug to take a look and saw that it was still basically clean and brand new looking. so i did a spark check and found that the spark was inconsistant and intermittant. this is telling me that i may have an electrical issue. i will be pulling the tank back off to check for volts at the coils, but i am also thinking that my ignitor may need to be rebuilt.

i think that the ignitor needs rebuilt because i do not have an external ground soldered into the case, just the case grounding to the frame through the tab that i welded inplace, so that will be one thing i will be adding. but this could also be as simple as a bad wire. what are your thoughts? i am thinking that it might be electrical at this point because that's what it ended up being with my kz at the end of the summer last year when i swapped out the coils, and it had almost the same symptoms, hanging idle, acting lean. there was no other weird idle problems, just hard starting and hanging idle. before i built this one when my old ignitor was firing on only 2 cylinders, it had a hard starting issue.

 

[posplayr]

I hate to think you bolted the hei unit right to the frame

 

[Steve]

If your ignitor is providing inconsistent operation to #2 spark plug, it will be doing the same thing to #3. :-k

Because your problem seems to be in only one cylinder, I would suspect fuel, not spark.

.

 

[60ratrod]

Posplayr, where would be a better spot for it? I can't put it back under the airbox because of it's size and my sh775 r/r is under there. Or is it because it does not have a ground?

 

[posplayr]

Posplayr, where would be a better spot for it? I can't put it back under the airbox because of it's size and my sh775 r/r is under there. Or is it because it does not have a ground?

Without pictures of what you are dealing with I have no idea, except vibration is one of the worst things for electronics despite how robust the HEI's probably are. If you are bolted right to the frame right above the engine you are giving a good shake all the time. The Dyna-S is also designed that way and we know there are subject to failures.

On a big V-8 they weigh so much more they just do not have the same acceleration in vibration that these smaller engines have.

 

[60ratrod]

 

[60ratrod]

the melted plastic on the hei module was from when i was soldering it together in the housing.

 

[Matchless]

I see something that may cause you some grief later on. The HEI modules require a good "heatsink" bolted to the metal face on one side, even using heat sink grease is required. If I may suggest that you bend a piece of heavy aluminum into a U shape to fit between the two modules and bolt it securely to the modules. You may want to cut the plastic locator pins off or drill a hole for them. It's not ideal, but may prevent or delay early failure due to heat.
It would also be a good idea to wrap the copper strands of the wire around the terminal before soldering them. If just sort of surface "sweated" they may fail due to stress or vibration after a while.

Hope this helps.

 

[posplayr]

I see something that may cause you some grief later on. The HEI modules require a good "heatsink" bolted to the metal face on one side, even using heat sink grease is required. If I may suggest that you bend a piece of heavy aluminum into a U shape to fit between the two modules and bolt it securely to the modules. You may want to cut the plastic locator pins off or drill a hole for them. It's not ideal, but may prevent or delay early failure due to heat.
It would also be a good idea to wrap the copper strands of the wire around the terminal before soldering them. If just sort of surface "sweated" they may fail due to stress or vibration after a while.

Hope this helps.

I agree, the HEI units should have a better heat sink. Are the metal tabs isolated? I see bolts so I assume so. The soldered ends do not look too good . Like the soldering iron is not hot enough. These are pretty big parts and you need lots of heat (at least 25-35W) to get things hot enough to melt the solder. Also if you are having to melt solder by putting it direct on the iron the joints will be cold. You heat the work and then the solder melts against the work not the iron.

As Andre is suggesting the crimped spades would dramatically improve the workmanship/reliability . You can then solder them down for best results and use a little shrink tubing.

The good news is that you have the box secured to the battery box. That would be my first choice is available . It is not soldered direct to the frame.

 

[Matchless]

I agree, the HEI units should have a better heat sink. Are the metal tabs isolated? I see bolts so I assume so. The soldered ends do not look too good . Like the soldering iron is not hot enough. These are pretty big parts and you need lots of heat (at least 50-75Watts) to get things hot enough to melt the solder. Also if you are having to melt solder by putting it direct on the iron the joints will be cold. You heat the work and then the solder melts against the work not the iron.

As Andre is suggesting the crimped spades would dramatically improve the workmanship/reliability . You can then solder them down for best results and use a little shrink tubing.

The good news is that you have the box secured to the battery box. That would be my first choice is available . It is not soldered direct to the frame.

Hi Jim, The metal part is ground thus the module ground is via the bolt. I compared my 35 year old Weller Cooper with a Chinese Hakko knockoff and found that the Chinese watts must be a bit smaller than the Wellers! A Chinese 50W may in actual fact be a 35W!

 

[posplayr]

One last thing about the ground. From the factory the battery box is grounded through a B/W ring lug. This B/W wire runs back to the harness where there is a common B/W crimp and then yet another B/W wire extends from the same point also has a ring lug and it mounts typically to your solenoid bolt. The current then travels through the side plate to get to your R/R(-) through yet another ring lug. I'm describing the 16V bikes mostly but the 8V are similar; this is one of the most problematical features of the GS charging systems, the grounds..

It is best to avoid the B/W ring lug although you can leave it in place. The best although a bit of overkill is to run the HEI ground to your single point ground. You have a SSPG correct? It would normally be near you R/R(-).

 

[60ratrod]

the underside of the battery tray was the because that i could see to mount it due to the amount of available space and airflow since it's just a hair, ok well not a hair, too big to fitt back under the airbox on the stock bracket. i've hit a wall right now with the ignitor though. the ignitor is not sending voltage from the 2/3 side to the coil. for testing and troubleshooting i took everything out of the box and placed it on a piece of plexiglass so i can evaluate what's going on. and from what i have been able to gather, the power is not going to the signal wire for the 2/3 coil. so i'm trying to figure out what's going on there. more to follow. now i have discovered that i do have a fairly big voltage drop at the coils, from 12vdc at the batteryto 10vdc at the coils so i am looking at doing the coil relay mod after i get paid.

as for soldering, i only apply solder to the iron so as to transfer heat from the iron to the part more efficiently. solder does not get appied until the tab is hot enough to melt the solder itself, then the wire is applied to the bead of solder while still melted. best thing about being a Prolwer Ordnanceman is when i went through the school for it, it taught me how to solder

 

[posplayr]

Hi Jim, The metal part is ground thus the module ground is via the bolt. I compared my 35 year old Weller Cooper with a Chinese Hakko knockoff and found that the Chinese watts must be a bit smaller than the Wellers! A Chinese 50W may in actual fact be a 35W!

I guess the memory is not what it used to be The Weller EC1002 has 20W and 40W iorns. I know that I need heating up 14Ga wires is a challenge with the 20Watt iron unless it is real clean or has plenty of solder.

 

[posplayr]

as for soldering, i only apply solder to the iron so as to transfer heat from the iron to the part more efficiently. solder does not get appied until the tab is hot enough to melt the solder itself, then the wire is applied to the bead of solder while still melted. best thing about being a Prolwer Ordnanceman is when i went through the school for it, it taught me how to solder

Well something is wrong as those solder joints look very cold (no smooth surfaces) and the wire was over heated as the insulation was about to drip off.

 

[60ratrod]

the soldering iron setup i am using is a blue point r60b, and the tip could use to be cleaned/replaced. the wire insulation looks like that from soldering in close quarters in the switch housing and touching the insulation with the iron.

 

[posplayr]

The blue point r60b looks like a weller and it is rated at 60Watts. That should be plenty. I have been using more flux that I used to , I started on very small surface mount parts but find if in doubt the solder flows much better. You want to keep the tip clean with a coating of solder.

You do need to clean it as it is acidic, electronics cleaner will do. I have been using these rather than a wet sponge. Tends to not thermally shock the tip as much and you don't have to worry about having water to keep the sponge wet.

http://www.amazon.com/Aoyue-Solderi...qid=1432593303&sr=8-4&keywords=solder+cleaner


http://www.amazon.com/MG-Chemicals-...?ie=UTF8&qid=1432593397&sr=8-11&keywords=flux

http://www.amazon.com/MG-Chemicals-...?ie=UTF8&qid=1432593397&sr=8-12&keywords=flux

 

[60ratrod]

well i think i can rule in a bad dyna 3 ohm coil. since i'm waiting on another pair of dyna 3 ohms, i took the dyna 3 ohms off of the suzuki and put them on the kz and went for a spin. the kz was running better with the 40 pilots i had to install, but running like the suzuki was, lack luster on power, trying to stall out at idle, and tested the header temps after shutdown and found #1 to be cold. plug looked a little wet, so i tested spark, and no spark on #1 plug, same as when the coils were on the suzuki, only the bad coil is running 1 & 4. so one more set of coils and i should be good to go.

 

[Grimly]

. I have been using these rather than a wet sponge. Tends to not thermally shock the tip as much and you don't have to worry about having water to keep the sponge wet.

http://www.amazon.com/Aoyue-Solderi...qid=1432593303&sr=8-4&keywords=solder+cleaner

A brass pan scourer in a metal ashtray - excellent!

 

[posplayr]

A brass pan scourer in a metal ashtray - excellent!

It works and saves on the soldering iron tips as well.

 

[mikerophone]

It works and saves on the soldering iron tips as well.

I use this one from Amazon, the bottom lid comes off to remove the little solder beads that eventually build up. One tip as mentioned in the reviews is to weight the bottom so it's more stable when you stab the tip into it. Works great, just tin the tip and poke in a few times to evenly coat it. Beats a wet sponge any day. Mine is a thin metal one although one of the questions answered state its plastic, but mine wasn't.