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electrical system redesign

  • Thread starter Thread starter beergood
  • Start date Start date
I'd also consider sheathing the main run of wires with corrugated plastic tubing to protect it against heat, dirt, and abrasion.

Yes. Do this, too.

I highly recommend using adhesive-lined heat shrink tubing. It's hard to find unless you have a pretty good electronics store nearby, (you can order it from McMaster-Carr: http://mcmaster.com ) but it's essential to making good waterproof electrical connections that won't corrode. A good marina might stock it, too.

If two wires need to be connected or disconnected, solder on spade connectors shielded with heat shrink tubing, connect with a dab of dielectric/anticorrosion grease, then cover the whole connection with heat shrink.

It's also very hard to find good connectors -- 99% of the ones you find in stores are the same crappy two brands. If there's a marina nearby, you might check with them for corrosion resistant connectors. You can also find good gold-plated connectors for use with high-end car stereo systems, but they're a bit expensive.

EVERYTHING on a bike is exposed to the elements -- there are no dry safe areas if you ever ride in the rain or through a puddle, so you have to treat every electrical connection as though it's going to need to work perfectly underwater for 20 years.
 
The bonus is this is all very "cafe" (minimalistic). Really fits with the theme of the bike. Nice work.
 
Indeed they are temporary. And they are only used on some lighting and other 'non-critical' systems. I mainly used them because they are quick and reliable enough for the areas I applied them. I am going to be doing a considerable amount of work on the bike over the winter and am looking into different junction options (possibly nautical).

A majority of my connections (and all used in ignition/charging) are soldered and shrink wrapped. There are still bullet connectors (new and shielded) on the rear light,rear brake, because I remove this from time to time. They will each be getting some sort of quick connect junction over the winter, along with the front lights.

The whole harness is inside a plastic enclosure.
 
Also, when my tach light goes out, that is a gremlin. When my bike suddenly dies at 1:00 AM in the ghetto, and I have to fix it on the shoulder of the road, well, that is what I call a demon.
 
If two wires need to be connected or disconnected, solder on spade connectors shielded with heat shrink tubing, connect with a dab of dielectric/anticorrosion grease, then cover the whole connection with heat shrink.

I heartily agree with everything you said except this little bit.

I used to do just what you said, thinking that this would give the best connections.

But at some point, someone told me that you don't want to solder.
You should never solder a connection that isn't mechanically supported on both sides of the joint.

The soldered wire is stiff, but where the solder ends the wire will flex, and this causes a stress concentration. You can mitigate the flex with heatshrink, but unless you use several layers, (preferably with different lengths) it will still form a stress riser.

I have had this bite me in the a** on other non-motorcycle projects, with the wire breaking right at the solder joints.

I have never had a crimped connection go bad though.

If you look at what they do in industry (or OEM automotive) they NEVER solder spade connectors to wire.
And I've never heard of the wire to connector crimp being a problem.

(our connector woes are mainly the connector to connector connection of the crappy bullet connectors, but not the crimps on the bullets themselves)

Just some food for thought, take it as you will.

Martin
 
I heartily agree with everything you said except this little bit.

I used to do just what you said, thinking that this would give the best connections.

But at some point, someone told me that you don't want to solder.
You should never solder a connection that isn't mechanically supported on both sides of the joint.

The soldered wire is stiff, but where the solder ends the wire will flex, and this causes a stress concentration. You can mitigate the flex with heatshrink, but unless you use several layers, (preferably with different lengths) it will still form a stress riser.

I have had this bite me in the a** on other non-motorcycle projects, with the wire breaking right at the solder joints.

I have never had a crimped connection go bad though.

If you look at what they do in industry (or OEM automotive) they NEVER solder spade connectors to wire.
And I've never heard of the wire to connector crimp being a problem.

(our connector woes are mainly the connector to connector connection of the crappy bullet connectors, but not the crimps on the bullets themselves)

Just some food for thought, take it as you will.

Martin

That makes a lot of sense to me. Good post!
 
Martin,

My only observation is that at the point where the wire is crimped you STILL have a stress point very similar to the end of a soldered joint, and invariably THAT is where the wire will flex and weaken. If you think about it, it makes perfect sense -- the connector being crimped to the wire is going to be inflexible, just like the solder joint, but with a less reliable electrical connection.

I've had BOTH types of connections fail at that very point, and for that reason I still would advocate a soldered joint (with flex protection at both ends) as the best solution where you don't need to regularly disconnect the circuit. Incidentally, the reason why auto companies don't solder spade connections is that it would greatly increase the cost of assembly. If cost is no object, soldering and properly insulating/securing is still the best way to go, and I agree with your suggestion that proper flex protection in the form of either heat shrink or several layers of electrical tape will help make either connection last as long as possible.

Regards,
 
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I'm all for soldering... I've seen very nice crimps done with fancy crimpers in many types of connections go bad. I havent seen many soldered joints go bad. Plus there's less resistance and better connection on a properly soldered spot.
 
Martin,

My only observation is that at the point where the wire is crimped you STILL have a stress point very similar to the end of a soldered joint, and invariably THAT is where the wire will flex and weaken. If you think about it, it makes perfect sense -- the connector being crimped to the wire is going to be inflexible, just like the solder joint, but with a less reliable electrical connection.

The big problem with soldering is that if you get the joint hot enough to get good wetting, you WILL get solder wicking out 1/4 to 1/2 inch in the wire. This puts the riser out in the open where the (nicely rigid) barrel of the connector can't protect it. All that can is the heatshrink, which is still fairly flexible to some degree. Also, with a properly done crimp, there is the locked in crimp, some uncrimped but rigid barrel, then the nylon cover, then just the insulation.
Meaning the bending stress is introduced over a gradually decreasing range of support. Its much harder to achieve this with a soldered connection.

Also, with soldering, you have to use the uninsulated connectors.
With crimping, you can use the insulated connectors, which have a strain relief built into the nylon

And finally there is the matter of assembler skill.
It's quite possible to make a crappy crimped connection (vise grips as a crimping tool anyone) but given reasonable tools and a little practice, good crimps are fairly easy to achieve.

Making a good solder joint isn't rocket surgery, but it takes a lot more skill than a crimp. Add the frequently cramped and unheigenic (greasy) conditons of trying to solder on a wiring harness, and getting a good joint can become a challenge for even the best.

I've had BOTH types of connections fail at that very point, and for that reason I still would advocate a soldered joint (with flex protection at both ends) as the best solution where you don't need to regularly disconnect the circuit.

I would agree with this under some conditions if you should never have to take the joint apart.

If you forsee ever possibly having to, then I think you are buying yourself more trouble than it's worth. I think its harder to do a good job redoing a solder joint that was taken apart than making a new virgin one.

Incidentally, the reason why auto companies don't solder spade connections is that it would greatly increase the cost of assembly.

I also thought this when I was originally told not to solder everything.
I was assured this is not the reason.

I forget when I was told about this, but it was from a source that I trusted.

I wonder what they do on aircraft, since reliability is more of a premium, and cost is less a driver there.


If cost is no object, soldering and properly insulating/securing is still the best way to go, and I agree with your suggestion that proper flex protection in the form of either heat shrink or several layers of electrical tape will help make either connection last as long as possible.
Regards,

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

I think that done optimally, both methods can be used to form a connection that should outlast the bike.
But I think that for most shadetree mechanics, for most connections, most of the time; they are going to get results that are closer to optimum with crimps than solder.

Don't get me wrong, I am not against soldering.
I have a very nice digital readout temperature controlled soldering station with every tip I could get for it.
I'd like to think I am quite good at soldering.
I even plan to try to hand solder some SMDs for some projects in the near future.

But there are applications and mis-applications for everything, and based on the best information I have, the wiring harness of bikes is usually a mis-application for soldered joints.


As an aside for anyone still reading our little dweebfest of best connection making :-D

Whatever you do, don't buy el-cheapo bargain brand electrical tape.
The pennies you save will be repaid with hours of frustration and
aggravation ...
Get something decent from a reputable maker.
I personally like scotch brand "super 33" (I think ... going from memory)
It sticks better, and if you do have to take it off it doesn't leave nearly the gooey slimey mess.

The connections made by the prior owner of my bike used twisted wire, covered with dollar store electrical tape ... I still curse him.

Pitch the cheap junk ... do it now.
 
I have to admit, Martin, that when I think about soldered joints I assume (mistakenly, I'm sure) a reasonably good solder joint. I'm a perfectionist, so nothing short of an excellent joint will do. I also make it a point to insulate beyond the "wick" area that molten solder will travel beyond the main joint, so perhaps that is why I've rarely had a problem with breakage - that area always has extra stress support in my work. Needless to say, you can deduce that my crimp joints also must live up to my perfectionist nature, so the comparison between the two is a fair one where it comes to my personal use.

I'd be very interested to know what the reason is that you were told automakers don't solder, and where did this person's source of knowledge originate? One would think that the majority of connections under a dashboard don't generally get disturbed once the vehicle rolls off the line, so I can understand why a less reliable (in my opinion) unsoldered spade connection would be acceptable.

Anyway, I agree to disagree, but I will agree on the point that if one is NOT an expert solderer they may indeed get better results from crimping.

Regards,
 
One thing about solder is that it melts when too much current flows through it. Makes an electrical fire much worse, shorts out other circuits, bad stuff. When I worked at Boeing as an aircraft electrician, everything was crimped for that reason. No solder anywhere.
And done properly, supported, protected from corrosion, good crimps last forever.
 
One thing about solder is that it melts when too much current flows through it. Makes an electrical fire much worse, shorts out other circuits, bad stuff. When I worked at Boeing as an aircraft electrician, everything was crimped for that reason. No solder anywhere.
And done properly, supported, protected from corrosion, good crimps last forever.

Most interesting point! Perhaps that's why the auto companies do it as well...

Regards,
 
Help needed on 'crimp'

Help needed on 'crimp'

Hello,

My English skills are not so brilliant, so I might need an explanation in words what that 'crimp' actually means... I have tried to find the equivalent here where I live (Dutch speaking) but I cannot seem to find it.

Can someone please, in plain and simple explanation, tell me what it is all about ?

thanks,

gert
 
This thread has definitely taken on an interesting second life, and I have been enjoying watching the debate.

My thoughts:

Both sides make good points about the pitfalls of crimping vs. soldering. It has been my experience that anything can fail. Although I don't think that the low/moderate cyclic stress that our harness undergo are going to lead to a lot of broken soldered connections. Then again, if you are like me you rarely ride through the hurricane like conditions that are going to completely destroy well made crimped connections. So I think if either methods are used properly they will probably last for quite a long while.

Side Note:

When I was 17/18 I worked for a local marine mechanic doing mostly grunt/gopher work. By the way, that job sucked. Boats are made for owners to enjoy on deck, and not for mechanics to be comfortable while overhauling an engine down below. Space is definitely maximized for leisure and not maintenance. I remember that most electrical connections that we made were crimped. They all seemed to work just fine. And when a boat owner finds a mechanic they trust they stick with them for years, so if there were problems with the electrical, we would have heard about it.

So then, why did I solder a lot of my connections? Because in my gut it just felt like the right thing to do. Also, I kind of like playing with the soldering iron.
 
I did a lot of work on our family's motorboat growing up, and from brand new to "in need of help" (due to my father's neglect over time) there was a lot I learned. I did notice that most of the worst corrosion leading to electrical woes was caused by crimp connections that had degraded over time.

By contrast, the soldered joints I made early in the life of the boat (which we bought new) when adding accessories surface-corroded just like the crimped connections but never failed. Unlike the crimps, they didn't depend on a squished mechanical connection to conduct current - they were permanently fused (this assumes a good solder joint, of course), so corrosion was never able to compromise the circuits.

This is why my gut instinct is still to do a proper solder joint whenever possible.

Regards,
 
awesome thread. i am in the process of redoing my wiring atm. i saw that you used heavier guage wire. do you remeber what size guage you went with? and is it still holding up?
 
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