GS1000G mods- big bore and fuel injection

[GS1000G Shopper]

I've had a bad week in general and this project has not helped it. Sorry if some of the replies were rather terse.

I put my pants on one leg at a time & presume others know more than I do, but am locked in to logical thinking like 18 hours a day. Your way may indeed be best and I hope this thread will pull the best ideas from both, so the hard work being done will make it 1000% easier the next time. We may see a fleet of injected GS models soon.

 

[GS1000G Shopper]

A preliminary look at the Pamco shows it will bolt on with minimal mods. I removed one of the pickups and stored the extra parts (two small screws and two plastic insulators) in a baggie.

1. The slots where it goes over the arms needed to be slightly filed. It would press on by hand pressure but would not come off w/o using a screwdriver, impractical once it was installed. A few passes with a small flat file cured that.

2. Once installed, there is a gap between where the OEM nut to turn the crank goes and the top of the new rotor. I found a new use for one of my .125" x .581" ID trigger wheels, as a flat washer to hold the rotor in place. A 1/2" washer was slightly too small ID wise. I'll find a part on McMaster that will work & link it. UPDATE: I found some .595" x .750" shoms that are .015" thick and come in a pack of 10. 99432A366 for about $8. I think it may be a good idea to shim the rotor top & bottom, it is really tight on the mounting screw, about .009" clearance. Of course, this keeps the magnet tight on he Hall sensor. With the shims you could adjust it as needed. This would need to be done before the arms are welded into place.

Preliminary observations:
1. The wiring is perfect length to go back to where the MS is located under the right side cover.

2. With the mounting plate centered (the slots are larger than stock for more adjustment) the red magnet lines up right on top of the pickup when the 1-4 is at TDC. Since the OEM timing is 17 degrees BTDC, I can adjust this in Tuner Studio.

I'm going to perform the wiring mods now & run the trigger log to see what type of pattern I get. This looks like it would be a great ignition unit for a stock bike, especially since it drives the coils as-is and costs a lot less than a Dyna system.


Pics will follow.

 

[GS1000G Shopper]

Pamco pics and graph:

 

[coombehouse]

Nice graph but I don't understand how it will work. Does this trigger just once every revolution?

 

[GS1000G Shopper]

I'm still learning how this setup works. Apparently the one magnet "sets" the pickup and the second one resets it. While I had RPM, I had no output when I hooked up a timing light. I'm experimenting with both pickups wired in via the VR inputs per this page.

My thought is the extra stuff for the ignition circuit (built in coil driver) is muddying the signal, but I'm waiting for some help from the MS2 Extra gurus.

 

[ArttuH]

I figured my reply would be taken wrong. I am rather literal. I read mass production would be pointless. I took that to mean there was one set & that was it. As with the GPz parts earlier, perhaps a great deal could be had, but then what does the next person do?

I'll be glad to list the post as a parts source in the index since more than one set exists and there's a general price point.

Like I said I have one or two sets available soon. And if there is demand I can get another batch made quite easily.

Unfortunately making this kind custom parts in small numbers isn't exactly cheap. But I think I can produce these for price that is reasonable compared cost and effort required to get your own one-off setup made.

 

[2whldreams]

Possible solution for triggering

Possible solution for triggering

From the Katana site
1A. The new way of doing this is to trigger off the negative side of the coil. This was intentionally avoided for the initial construction due to the MS being susceptible to damage from CDI type coils. The katana ignitor, while called the CDI, is actually NOT a CDI type ingition. It uses standard coils which CAN be used by MS. The only change required is a pair of diodes preventing the ignitor from firing both coils at once and then adding a 12v pull up circuit with a 1000ohm resistor. This is the new diagram to use, all wires can be found at the igniter itself; there is no need to run wires all the way from each coil to the MS:

Note that the new ignition circuit still pipes into the MS on pin 24, same as the HEI diagram shows. Also pay attention to the orientation of the diodes, the banded end MUST match my diagram. Diodes are 1N4001 types, you'll have at least 2 spares in an MS2.2 kit for your use.

 

[2whldreams]

(cont.) possible trigger solution

(cont.) possible trigger solution

This is the thinking behind the Kat site

The two diodes prevent power from flowing back into the coils, but it allows a signal out. The downfall of this is that it causes no voltage to flow into the MS. So you need to wire in a 12 volt "pull up" using a 1kohm resistor. This allows a tiny amout of current to bring the line up to 12 volts when a coil is not firing. When the coil fires, it quickly drains that line faster than the resistor can refill it. So the MS sees the signal go 12-0-12-0-12-0 etc, where with no pullup it would be nothing but zero volts ever. I might have been able to reverse the diodes so the line fills with power when the coil isnt firing, but depending on the rate of drain the MS has on the tach line it may not have worked. My diagram looks very spread out, but all of the wires you need are on the 6 pin plug on the CDI box. Power is orange-white, coil one is white, coil 2 is black-yellow. So to do this I didnt even add wires, just bridged a few by soldering diodes and resistors in.

And it worked! Bike now idles smoothly down to a previously unseen 800 RPM! Tach signal is smooth and accurate. Bike revs freely and comes down to rest at idle with no hiccups.

I still have NO idea why 2 cyl mode doesnt work. It worked for the turbo guy in the link above. It ran my bike too, but wouldnt idle right. I don't get it, but I'm not wasting anymore time worrying about it. It works now, in the correct 4 cyl mode. Now I need an oil temp sensor and this thing should be ready for DD duty.

EDIT: Wow that picture came up small. If anyone really needs to see it in full detail I'll resize it.

Also, if I understand the theory correctly, another gentleman used the similar triggering for an XS1100

 

[coombehouse]

Nice to see something happening here. I had wondered if this project was dead. Not wishing to gloat but I am up & running with my Katana & have been for a month now. I have ridden it & am now doing as much logging & mapping as I can. No issues so far but then I didn't really expect any as I have only learned & copied from other peoples projects. Just need to fit my tip over sensor & its all finished - for now anyway.
Nick

 

[GS1000G Shopper]

This is the thinking behind the Kat site

The two diodes prevent power from flowing back into the coils, but it allows a signal out. The downfall of this is that it causes no voltage to flow into the MS. So you need to wire in a 12 volt "pull up" using a 1kohm resistor. This allows a tiny amout of current to bring the line up to 12 volts when a coil is not firing. When the coil fires, it quickly drains that line faster than the resistor can refill it. So the MS sees the signal go 12-0-12-0-12-0 etc, where with no pullup it would be nothing but zero volts ever. I might have been able to reverse the diodes so the line fills with power when the coil isnt firing, but depending on the rate of drain the MS has on the tach line it may not have worked. My diagram looks very spread out, but all of the wires you need are on the 6 pin plug on the CDI box. Power is orange-white, coil one is white, coil 2 is black-yellow. So to do this I didnt even add wires, just bridged a few by soldering diodes and resistors in.

And it worked! Bike now idles smoothly down to a previously unseen 800 RPM! Tach signal is smooth and accurate. Bike revs freely and comes down to rest at idle with no hiccups.

I still have NO idea why 2 cyl mode doesnt work. It worked for the turbo guy in the link above. It ran my bike too, but wouldnt idle right. I don't get it, but I'm not wasting anymore time worrying about it. It works now, in the correct 4 cyl mode. Now I need an oil temp sensor and this thing should be ready for DD duty.

EDIT: Wow that picture came up small. If anyone really needs to see it in full detail I'll resize it.

Also, if I understand the theory correctly, another gentleman used the similar triggering for an XS1100

That was called the GSXR mod on the MSExtra site. I tried it via a plug-in harness and had no useable signal. To use it, I'd need to buy another ignitor box to use and of course this disallows any ignition control. I'm currently waiting for Arttu to have a trigger wheel setup made so I can try that.

The project is not dead, just on parts hold again. I'm glad the other one is up & running.

 

[coombehouse]

Ah so you have decided to try another trigger option. Did the Pamco setup not work out then?

 

[GS1000G Shopper]

The Pamco did not work to fire the coils. I would have had to make big mods to get it to work. The magnet spacing imparts excess dwell for the coils, and the plate does not allow the triggers to sit where they need to be for 17 BTDC firing.

Live & learn. I can possibly sell it to someone with a CB750.

 

[coombehouse]

When you get your trigger sorted if you wish I will send you a copy of my tune. You will have to change the trigger values & the sensor calibration etc but it should provide you with a very good baseline for fueling etc.
Nick

 

[GS1000G Shopper]

Thanks, that will be helpful.

The next problem showed up today when I pulled the tank to R&R the head gasket. I noticed fuel had dribbled from around the petcock where it met the tank. This is truly frustrating, as I used all new parts there- the seal, the bolts, and the seals under the bolts. The latter are basically washers, so I think this is where the leak is happening.

I had sent off the PWM controller and the vendor couldn't find anything wrong with it. It will be a while before I do any more testing with it, and due to the aforementioned leak I may just install the GSX-G petcock fitting and run a return line with a pressure regulator.

 

[coombehouse]

Take it apart & reassemble it with hylomar. That's what pingel recommend & it worked for me.

 

[GS1000G Shopper]

Thanks. I'll do that. Need to use it on the new head gasket also from what I've read.

 

[Guest]

I haven't heard of using Hylomar on a head gasket. Are you talking the cylinder head or cam cover? I can see using it on a cam cover but don't know if it would be necessary.

Learn something new every day, reading the applications for Hylomar Blue, it states cylinder head gasketing. Ray

 

[coombehouse]

With a smear of hylomar on the OE steel gaskets you can use them more than once. Getting it on thin enough is a challenge though. Permatex copper silicone aerosol is good too but almost unobtainable outside the USA unfortunaletly. No good in contact with fuel though so its not for pet cocks. Hylomar is fuel proof.
Nick

 

[geek]

Interesting project.

 

[GS1000G Shopper]

I have replaced the head gasket and so far so good. I think the problem was the wrong gasket. The new one (Suzuki GS1100G OEM) seemed to have more material in the area where the leak was taking place. I used Permatex spray copper on it. I used this on the GSX-G as well when I put it back together recently and it has held up OK.

Arttu's trigger setup arrived recently and it looks good. The wheel is much larger than those I was using, and it is thicker as well. I'll add some pics here at the end of this post.

The wheel has no timing marks, so what I did was align the old inner timing plate with mark and make a mark on the engine casing aligned with it. On the wheel, I aligned the old advance mechanism and scribed T and F marks for 1-4 and also a T mark for 2-3. I used the old plate and advance unit to ensure my marks were correct when I reinstalled the cams.

The trigger has two wires, one red/white and one white. I adapted these to the MS by connecting the red/white to VR1 + and the white to VR1 -. I'll also note it is possible to install the trigger plate facing the wrong way. The wire terminals go behind the plate towards the engine. If you install it backwards, it will not generate a signal. The portion that has exposed metal must face the wheel teeth. I found the gap was .035", which is a good tolerance. I get an RPM reading of < 300 in Tuner Studio, so I know it is seeing a trigger signal.

Here are the pics, first the parts (new- left vs old- right) and then the tooth pattern as obtained via Tuner Studio. I'll do a before & after on it for comparison.
Arttu parts:




Timing marks:



Old 24-2 pattern:


Arttu 24-2 pattern: