Hot R/R along with complete power loss (GS450E -82)

[ChickenStorm]

Hi there! I haven't been posting in a while since the bike's been running flawlessly since getting the carb tuned and R/R properly wired (mistaked the ignition wire for ground), but now after riding over a cobble road said ignitor wire came loose from my shoddy connector crimp :-\\\. Once I got the seat removed and noticed what was wrong I felt that the R/R was hot to the touch. The loose ignition wire caused an overcharge situation which was also a question I posten on here about. Should I be worried about this or is it likely shorted on the inside? One of the pins for the three stator wires had melted around the connector so I assume there was some spicy action going on there :ambivalence:. I recrimped all the wires and started the bike from cold and within a minute the R/R was hot again. For the record I have LED light all around and my max load is right around 8A. Any advice?

 

[Grimly]

If you're running all LED lighting, the standard reg-rec is punishing the stator even more than normal. The only solution is a series reg-rec - like an SH775 - do a forum search.

 

[ChickenStorm]

As I've understood it's pretty difficult to differentiate between counterfeit models of the SH775 before buying, but how about when you have the unit in your hands? Is there a way of determining the R/R type once you have one? I have a three phase R/R unit on hand from a 2017 chinese Honda Z50 clone but I'm not at all sure if it's a series or shunt model :dejection:.

 

[Rich82GS750TZ]

It's really not that difficult. The Genuine Shindengen SH-775 has this writing in white on the top fin. Haven't seen a counterfeit one yet that mimics this. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Not the best pic to illustrate but you can see it.

If in doubt, throw up a pic. Or, contact Nessism . He buys used units, tests them on his bike and sells them at a good price. He sometimes has a couple or three ready to go.

 

[ChickenStorm]

I might have to buy a genuine used one since when searching for specifically the SH755 most of what I see below 100€ are replacement versions that look the same but conveniently don't show that writing on the top fins. They are very tempting though since most of them come with the plugs too nthego:

 

[Rich82GS750TZ]

here's a better picture of the top fin.

 

[Nessism]

I might have to buy a genuine used one since when searching for specifically the SH755 most of what I see below 100€ are replacement versions that look the same but conveniently don't show that writing on the top fins. They are very tempting though since most of them come with the plugs too nthego:

Don't buy a fake. They are NOT proven to be series type. Most likely shunt type.

 

[ChickenStorm]

Is there a measurable difference between a shunt or series type? Is there a way for me to test this one I have already, if it's a shunt or not? I guess the most straightforward way would be to see if it gets hot but that seems unnecessarily risky.

 

[Nessism]

Is there a measurable difference between a shunt or series type? Is there a way for me to test this one I have already, if it's a shunt or not? I guess the most straightforward way would be to see if it gets hot but that seems unnecessarily risky.

Almost all R/R's are shunt type. It's only certain later model bikes that have moved to series type. I'm not sure how to do it, but there have been some guys that checked function using an amp meter. Series shuts off return current directed to the stator.

 

[bitzz]

Regulators that work with permanent magnet alternators, like on most motorcycles, are all "shunt" regulators. They "shunt" excess power to ground.
The older types had the regulating circuit in parallel, the Shindengens have the regulating circuit in series. Less circuitry, less heat. The biggest claim to fame of the Shindengens are the mosfet diodes, which are a lot faster, and have less overhead... so less heat.

 

[Nessism]

Regulators that work with permanent magnet alternators, like on most motorcycles, are all "shunt" regulators. They "shunt" excess power to ground.
The older types had the regulating circuit in parallel, the Shindengens have the regulating circuit in series. Less circuitry, less heat. The biggest claim to fame of the Shindengens are the mosfet diodes, which are a lot faster, and have less overhead... so less heat.

Actually, SERIES type function different than shunt. The MOSFET Shindengens, are still shunt.

 

[salty_monk]

You need an oscilloscope to be able to see what is happening to the current. Without that it's not possible to see what it's doing....

 

[ChickenStorm]

I've been reading up on "The Stator Papers" and all components seem to be in order. I even redid the ground wires in thicker gauge so that won't be the problem. So now I'm asking if it's normal for the R/R to get hot after idling a while? My peak power draw is 8A with the halogen blinkers on but my average running load is only around 5A. Is it just a fact that I need a series regulator or is there still something I should check? Should I consider getting a mosfet type R/R and just wait for the stator to give up and rewind it then?

 

[LAB3]

When the stator on my 82 450 went bad I'd been running a SH775 for well over a year at that point. The best choice would be to replace both the R/R and stator at the same time but by the same token why replace a part that isn't broken?

When the stator finally did go bad two of the three windings where shorted, I was only getting 1/3 of it's output into the charging system. After unplugging the headlight I had enough power to run the bike but not charge it, the starter wouldn't turn the bike over but I was able to push start it until the new stator arrived.

 

[Grimly]

I've been reading up on "The Stator Papers" and all components seem to be in order. I even redid the ground wires in thicker gauge so that won't be the problem. So now I'm asking if it's normal for the R/R to get hot after idling a while? My peak power draw is 8A with the halogen blinkers on but my average running load is only around 5A. Is it just a fact that I need a series regulator or is there still something I should check? Should I consider getting a mosfet type R/R and just wait for the stator to give up and rewind it then?

Mosfet types are still shunt types, so a waste of time and money if you want to extend stator life.
Get a series type before your stator craps itself.

 

[ChickenStorm]

When the stator on my 82 450 went bad I'd been running a SH775 for well over a year at that point. The best choice would be to replace both the R/R and stator at the same time but by the same token why replace a part that isn't broken?

When the stator finally did go bad two of the three windings where shorted, I was only getting 1/3 of it's output into the charging system. After unplugging the headlight I had enough power to run the bike but not charge it, the starter wouldn't turn the bike over but I was able to push start it until the new stator arrived.

That gives me an idea, would there be a way of somehow disabling the third coil and only running on two phase? My current draw is so low that maybe it could work on only two phases? Is this a suitable sollution or am I just completely out of my mind? I have a two phase rectifier on hand so that would be pretty easy conversion.

 

[LAB3]

The question is will you be further ahead at the end? Get in touch with Nessism here on the board, he sells tested used SH775's at a very reasonable price.

I live full time with everything strapped to my bike and trailer, at one time it was on that 450. If you just want a bike to play on for awhile or a quick flip then the $30 Chinesium R/R will work, until it doesn't. On the other hand if you want a bulletproof bike that's not likely to let you down then the 775 is a worthy investment.

 

[salty_monk]

You could just not connect the third leg I would think but I don't think it will really help you... You'll just be either overloading those two legs only and/or have a wasted battery system at anything apart from freeway speeds.

This topic has been done to death several times over. Spend the money & fix it right. It's not even a large amount of $$.

 

[Grimly]

Spend the money & fix it right. It's not even a large amount of $$.

True dat.
I now have two spares, just in case. I will use one on the 79, and the third will likely never be used, as I've not heard of an SH775 failing in service.
I had a moment of doubt, when the voltmeter started wobbling at 4K, but it turned out to be dirty connections at the RR. Been rock solid since.

 

[ChickenStorm]

I'm having a really hard time finding these series type regulators that don't have at least half their price in shipping costs here in northern europe. Even without the price of shipping I can say they aren't cheap around here :cower:.

Looking for alternatives seems like a fools errand but I've been looking at installing a ballast resistor to remove a bit of heat from the charging system, this is a bit counterintuitive since my LED lights are so efficient but this clearly is overloading the R/R with the excess power. Another alternative I was looking at as stated above is converting the system into a single phase system, which I wrongfully called a two phase. I have the time to do this and the motivation since I'm very cheap and a student, and if ya'll know what my bike looks like you'd see that this is far from the most unique idea on this project :very_drunk:.

I've understood that the problem here is that the third phase is completely unregulated, but does that mean that if we for the sake of argument don't consider the possibility of overloading the remaining utilized stator, it could solve the overheating issues? The load I measured is around 5A with the key in the running position and I've owned plenty of mopeds that have a bigger running load and only run off of a split phase system so a complete single phase system would be more than enough?

Let me know If I should post this in a separate thread at this point, and if there are any other threads discussing this!