New Owner needs Help!

[Guest]

I believe Octain was referring to the spark plugs being wet or smelling of gas, especially on cylinders 3 and 4. If they aren't firing and you are getting gas to cylinders, then they will be wet with gas or at least smell of gasoline. If they are dry and clean with no carbon, like new, then they are not getting gas. Obviously, a little carbon indicates they are burning gasoline and hence running a least some of the time.

Try changing spark plugs from running cylinders to non running cylinders. If it is bad plugs, it will follow plugs. Do this right after engine has been running with plugs warm. Take care not to burn self, but after only running short time engine shouldn't be extremely hot.

Leave airbox on, these bikes will not run well without some sort of intake restriction.

Did you replace your petcock? You may be getting fuel in the oil.

 

[brian]

the petcock was replaced by PO. It seems to be working fine, when everything was running/working. I don't think that's it.

 

[brian]

Ok, after letting her sit for a while, the popping has stopped.

but now she just turns over and never starts...this is frustrating.

I have checked:

* plugs are all brand new, gapped properly, and getting a good spark
* airbox is sealed and properly installed...no leaks
* finished carb rebuild yesterday, did everything to specs.
* petcock was installed new by po, there's fuel in the line and it seems to working perfectly.
* don't smell fuel, doesn't seem flooded

Can someone give me the magic pill to get this thing running...

 

[cowboyup3371]

Fuses checked and good? Not just visually checked but tested with at least a power light? You should have power on the left side of the fuse with the key off (others no power) and on both sides once you turn the key on, if I remember what Steve told me last year.

 

[Guest]

Damn confusing. Cowboy, you are correct. MIght be an idea to check the fuses.

It almost sounds like the plugs might be fouled. Use a cigarette lighter to heat the tips(firing end) a bit to dry em off.
You sure the plugs are firing? Did you remove em, hit the starter button and see spark?
I'm stumped!
Anyone??

 

[brian]

Alright after scratching my head for a while, I went back to the basics. After trying to start for a few times I pulled the plugs. #1 was wet the other 3 were dry.

Back to the carbs!...this sucks. I'm going to pull them off and double check everything on them. Any suggestions of what to look for first? Is the float level correct? I set them to .88in (I used a micrometer) like the book says, but should I fudge them higher or lower? I'll check out the jets and airways...

I'll let you know what I find?

PS. GS1100GK - I keep the battery on a charger when I'm not trying to start her...battery's good. Octain...yea I check the plugs against the crank case...they're working perfectly...that's why I'm heading to the carbs now

...Oh yea, did I tell you - This sucks!

 

[BassCliff]

Hi,

What is the battery voltage when you press the starter button? What is the voltage at the coils when you press the starter button?


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

 

[brian]

I just pulled the carbs and as i thought...there's nothing wrong with them?

the #1 carb had a oily discharge in the intake and exhaust sections of the carb. I looked down the valve intake and the oil was obviously coming from there. 2,3, and 4 had nothing on them...not even fuel.

Now, my question, it appears that the engine had too much oil. So I'm currently draining and going to get some oil and a filter...hope the local parts store has one in stock. If not I'll be ordering one.

I took the right side cover off to have access to rotate the engine with the crank/bolt that basscliff showed in his valve/shim series. As I turned the engine over the #3 and #4 valves had bubbles coming from around the valve. Is this an indication of a valve adjustment or worse?

I'm not intimidated from tearing down this entire engine and starting from scratch...that won't bother me so please don't hold back on your answers.

Also, the valves are filthy! They look like they have years of build up. If they can be cleaned with a fuel additive or something I'm fine with that, but if it's better to do something more extensive I'd like to hear about that too.

I still can't find why she won't start? I'll move on to electrical checks tomorrow, if I have too.

Thanks again for all the advice guys, it means a lot to have someplace to go for questions and feedback...

P.S. it's not the petcock it checks out fine.

 

[Guest]

I just pulled the carbs and as i thought...there's nothing wrong with them?

the #1 carb had a oily discharge in the intake and exhaust sections of the carb. I looked down the valve intake and the oil was obviously coming from there. 2,3, and 4 had nothing on them...not even fuel.

Now, my question, it appears that the engine had too much oil. So I'm currently draining and going to get some oil and a filter...hope the local parts store has one in stock. If not I'll be ordering one.

I took the right side cover off to have access to rotate the engine with the crank/bolt that basscliff showed in his valve/shim series. As I turned the engine over the #3 and #4 valves had bubbles coming from around the valve. Is this an indication of a valve adjustment or worse?

I'm not intimidated from tearing down this entire engine and starting from scratch...that won't bother me so please don't hold back on your answers.

Also, the valves are filthy! They look like they have years of build up. If they can be cleaned with a fuel additive or something I'm fine with that, but if it's better to do something more extensive I'd like to hear about that too.

I still can't find why she won't start? I'll move on to electrical checks tomorrow, if I have too.

Thanks again for all the advice guys, it means a lot to have someplace to go for questions and feedback...

P.S. it's not the petcock it checks out fine.

If you're bubbling out the valves your valve seals or guides are toast (most likely seals) or your oil is full of gas from a bad petcock. Humour me and smell the vacuum line of the petcock and see if it smells like gas.
Are you priming the carbs before cranking?

 

[brian]

As far as priming: I turned the petcock to prime and let it fill up the bowls. I even let it sit for about 10 minutes or so, before attempting to start. If there's another way to prime, I need to learn how to do that?

Vacuum line is clean and clear and doesn't smell like gas.

Bad seals or guides? Is there a pictured tuturial or something that can step me through that process?

Thanks for your time...

 

[waterman]

Before I would get too worried about valve seals and/or guides, I would check into why your bike is not running on all 4 cylinders at once. My 650 had bad valve seals, but started and ran fine. Created an oil cloud at start up but cleared up in minute or so.

How old is battery? Do you have a multimeter or some other way to measure the voltage of battery before and after starting? A failing battery, even when coming off a charger, may not provide enough power to spin engine and make a strong spark to ignite fuel. Especially, if state of tune isn't quite right. Multimeters are fairly inexpensive and very useful in diagnostic for electric problems with these bikes.

By comparing voltage before and while starting we can eliminate the battery and wiring from causing your hard start problems.

Do you know if the previous owner had ever checked the valve clearances? Even if he had, I would double check. As these engines wear, the valve clearance decreases until the valves do not close fully, resulting in less performance and harder starting. Your compression values imply that the valve are sealing, but they may still be out of acceptable range. It is required maintenance on these engines, quite simple once you have done it. This may not be the reason it is not running, but it is one of the things you will need to check.

What is your starting procedure? Typically, set the "choke" to about fully open and then simply crank engine. Do not give it any gas, even if it stumbles. Turning the throttle will defeat how the enrichment circuit works. After engine starts it will rev up, sometimes to 4K or more, this is normal and not a problem. Usually, I will decrease choke to keep engine speed around 2K. After a little bit, then try to give it gas, if it stalls, restart without throttle again. It isn't rideable until you can give it throttle without stalling or hesitation.

I know this is a lot of questions, I am just trying to help eliminate the variables. I think you are pretty close to getting this thing to running right.

 

[brian]

I can't thank you more, I was beginning to get a little discouraged there...

* I have a mulitimeter, will start checking all the electricals around tomorrow evening...I still need to check the valve clearances, reinstall the carbs, finish the oil change, reinstall the airbox, reinstall the tank...yada, yada, yada.

* As far as starting procedure, I haven't had to use the choke as of yet, but I will tomorrow when I get her back together and prime her. I never use the throttle to start.

If I can't get it started it will be hard to tell what's up with the "battery before and after starting" but I will check, battery, voltage at the coils, voltage in the fuse box...etc. I'll try my best to find something...do you have any procedures or advice?

I know she's almost there, but finding the "one thing" that's wrong is a daunting task???

Look forward to hearing from you...thanks!

 

[waterman]

I can't thank you more, I was beginning to get a little discouraged there...

* I have a mulitimeter, will start checking all the electricals around tomorrow evening...I still need to check the valve clearances, reinstall the carbs, finish the oil change, reinstall the airbox, reinstall the tank...yada, yada, yada.

* As far as starting procedure, I haven't had to use the choke as of yet, but I will tomorrow when I get her back together and prime her. I never use the throttle to start.

If I can't get it started it will be hard to tell what's up with the "battery before and after starting" but I will check, battery, voltage at the coils, voltage in the fuse box...etc. I'll try my best to find something...do you have any procedures or advice?

I know she's almost there, but finding the "one thing" that's wrong is a daunting task???

Look forward to hearing from you...thanks!

The "one thing" is usually everything. The problem lies with past owners, so called technician, etc. all with their hands in it. You have the carbs clean, that is always a good place to start. Now it is getting engine running on all four and then fine tuning it to run great all the time.

The starting procedure I described is typically used everytime you cold start engine. Always use choke, whether half or full dependent on temperature and how often bike has been ran. First cold start of year, full choke on my 650. After I have ran old gas through, half choke rest of summer. How long I keep on choke, until it will respond to throttle. Then I will drive off and turn choke off within first mile. I will use choke even if warm, it always fires up.

 

[brian]

Man...I'm going to get promoted to senior site supporter before I even get this thing running.

I'm almost there...I think...

Here it goes:

* Figured out the "towel" problem I was having. Meaning when I would have to stuff or cover the airbox with a towel to get her to start. When I cleaned the air filter element inside, I didn't know to re-oil her. My sponge was clean but dry. I have now covered it with air filter oil that I use on my K&N intake for my truck, seems great now.

* I have checked and re-checked the petcock...it's good guys...really. No gas in the vacuum line, primes properly, I even have a clear fuel line on now and can see the fuel running when it's supposed too, both in prime and in the "on" position.

* Now, all of the plugs are dry. They are getting a great spark...all of them. I have check and recheck the spark against the crankcase... No oil on them, no fuel on them...nothing. Which leads me to the carbs:

* I have recently cleaned the carbs (and soaked for 24 hours each) and set everything according to basscliffs rebuild series perfectly. I'm beginning to think that I set the floats incorrectly or something??? I know they are filling up and priming. (I've checked the drain plugs for fuel, the fuel line has fuel half way up to the tank)

My statement: How could all four carbs be clogged or something? I must have a setting wrong...somehow, and the only thing I can think of is the float height.

In regards to the float height: I turned the individual carbs over and set the float height without touching/or pressing down on the needle valve at all. Should I have depressed the needle valve then set the height? I measured from the (inverted) top of the rubber curve to the casing edge where the bowl mounts. they are set to .88in. perfectly, unless I measured from the wrong spot or something.

Let me apologize for the long post, but I can only imagine trying help someone like me with partial information...so I'm trying to be thorough, I hope you understand.

And by the way, I can't say thank you enough guys!!!

 

[brian]

Ok, thanks for all your help...here it goes...

I disconnected the tank and made the "replacement", plugged the vacuum line and got nothing.

She turns over, but won't start. I checked the plugs and they are still dry. Back to the carbs?

Oh yea...HAPPY EASTER to you!

 

[BassCliff]

Hi,

Have a look here:

Float Height Illustrations

Have you recently replaced the float bowl gaskets with aftermarket parts? Check to make sure the new gaskets are exactly like to old ones. Here's why...

Notice on this particular gasket, there are TWO punch-outs that need to be removed to exactly match the OEM gasket.

All four gaskets might not be the same. Be sure the necessary punch-outs are removed on the carb(s) that need(s) it.

Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

 

[brian]

Ok, here is the float height (without depressing the needle spring). I set/measured the height from the edge instead of where the gasket seats. Float heights are at 1.0 inch. Dumb question, is this enough to not let it start?

View attachment 13014

I do have the bike perfectly level on the center stand.

Also, my question yet to be answered, when measuring the float height do you depress the needle spring or just let the float rest on the needle like I have it in this picture.

thanks again guys...

P.S. I also have new bowl gaskets but the hole has been "popped" out...they look correct. I'll attach another photo in the next post. By the way, how do I attach multiple photos to one post...it wouldn't let me attach but one photo to this post.

 

[brian]

Photo of the gaskets with hole punched out.

View attachment 13015

 

[BassCliff]

Ok, here is the float height (without depressing the needle spring). I set/measured the height from the edge instead of where the gasket seats. Float heights are at 1.0 inch. Dumb question, is this enough to not let it start?

Hi,

In inches the float height is about 0.88189 (that's 22.4mm). If you're at 1 inch then the floats are leaving the fuel level in the bowls lower than it should be. See: Float Height Illustrations.

Measure the floats with them just touching the float valves.

See the guide on my website about posting pictures to GSR.

Are all the new bowl gaskets exactly the same as the old gaskets? Do you have the old gaskets to compare?


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

 

[brian]

I will adjust the floats accordingly, thanks for the confirmation...

On the gaskets, they are the ones that the old PO installed. I do not have the old ones. The gaskets seem to be correct, based on the passages underneath them and on the bowls.

I'm adjusting the floats now, and then installing them...wish me luck!

Thanks!