R/R Help... Just need confirmation!!! Help!

[djscottymiami]

Ok, I followed the stator papers.

Everything is good till I reach section (C)


"Disconnect the RR from the bike. Switch the multimeter to the diode test position. Connect the RED multimeter lead to the RED positive output wire of the RR. Connect the BLACK multimeter-lead to one of the yellow wires. Check the reading. Repeat this procedure for the two other yellow wires."

When I do this, I get open circuit (OL) on my fluke meter.

In this section:

Connect the BLACK multimeter lead to the RED output wire of the RR. Connect the RED multimeter lead to one yellow wire. Check the reading. Repeat this procedure for the two other yellow wires.

I get ~0.5V for all of them







In section:

Connect the BLACK multimeter lead to the negative output wire (BLACK/WHITE) of the RR . If there is no output wire, connect the black multimeter lead to the RR-case Connect the RED multimeter lead to one yellow wire. Check the reading. Repeat this procedure for the two other yellow wires.

I get (OL) on my meter,


and in this one:

Connect the RED multimeter lead to the negative output wire (BLACK/WHITE) of the RR. If there is no output wire, connect the black multimeter lead to the RR case Connect the BLACK multimeter lead to one yellow wire. Check the reading. Repeat this procedure for the two other yellow wires.


I get ~0.5V.



Is it safe to assume that the R/R is ****ed? Sounds to me like a bad set of diodes on the inside? Someone please help!!!

Thanks!

Marc




**ignore the edit... it was a loose wire... looks like im going to be doing some replacing of bullet connectors on tthe weekend****

 

[SqDancerLynn1]

Since you are trying to check the reg I would just change it. A defective reg can cause the fuse to blow..

If you want to verify it disconnect the reg (all wires) take it for a ride just on the battery

 

[djscottymiami]

Since you are trying to check the reg I would just change it. A defective reg can cause the fuse to blow..

It was my mistake. I took the edit out. Turns out one of my bullet connectors got loose and wasn't quite making. I've got power now.. Looks like i've got a weekend project. Anyone else have input about the problem? Thanks!!

 

[duaneage]

The stator papers say to measure volts across the diodes, patently wrong since we are measuring ohms. You should see 500-600 ohms for each of the 6 diodes. Someone really should correct that, it confuses people who are looking for voltage from a RR sitting on the bench away from a battery.

The case is not grounded or connected to anything. Measuring between the metal case and any wire will probably show no connection. I would be more concerned if it showed 0 ohms to the red or yellow wires since that might indicate something inside burned up and is touching the metal housing. This is a "bad touch" as it can lead to short circuits and burnt connectors.

When you put the black ohmmeter lead to the red RR wire, and the Red ohmmeter lead to each yellow you are Forward Biasing the diodes and that will show around 550 ohms. This means the diode is allowing voltage from the stator to pass through.

Now, when the red ohmmeter lead is on the ground wire, and the Red ohmmeter lead is on each yellow, then the OTHER 3 diodes are allowing voltage to pass to the ground connection. This also will show 500 ohms approximately.

Reverse the leads and it shows OL , or Open Lead for the diodes. The Diodes actually block voltage when it changes direction, allowing the other set of three to conduct instead.

If you have 80 Volts AC when the engine is running from the three yellow wires (disconnected from the RR of course) then the RR is probably the problem.

 

[djscottymiami]

Someone really should correct that, it confuses people who are looking for voltage from a RR sitting on the bench away from a battery.

I've got a Fluke 179. I was checking it out on diodes test. I understand the principal of a 3phase rectifier (I work with power electrical systems at work).

I've got ~60VAC at 3000RPM (I don't want to go too high because my tach is slow and i dont want to blow anything) on all three leads coming from the stator so i'm not really worried about it.


I didn't like where the ground for the R/R went so I cleaned it up and put it directly to the negative terminal on the battery (Is that a bad thing?) The connection to the chassis is good (i accidentaly hit a +12V lead to the frame and it popped a fuse so its good lol).


When I disconnected the Red wire from the R/R and started the bike, I measured 12ish volts that moved a little bit with RPM but it didn't come close to 14. It actually went down when I went on the throttle a little bit more.


If I check with the ohm method you said above, should that give me a better idea?

 

[bakalorz]

The stator papers say to measure volts across the diodes, patently wrong since we are measuring ohms. You should see 500-600 ohms for each of the 6 diodes. Someone really should correct that, it confuses people who are looking for voltage from a RR sitting on the bench away from a battery.

The case is not grounded or connected to anything. Measuring between the metal case and any wire will probably show no connection. I would be more concerned if it showed 0 ohms to the red or yellow wires since that might indicate something inside burned up and is touching the metal housing. This is a "bad touch" as it can lead to short circuits and burnt connectors.

When you put the black ohmmeter lead to the red RR wire, and the Red ohmmeter lead to each yellow you are Forward Biasing the diodes and that will show around 550 ohms. This means the diode is allowing voltage from the stator to pass through.

Now, when the red ohmmeter lead is on the ground wire, and the Red ohmmeter lead is on each yellow, then the OTHER 3 diodes are allowing voltage to pass to the ground connection. This also will show 500 ohms approximately.

Reverse the leads and it shows OL , or Open Lead for the diodes. The Diodes actually block voltage when it changes direction, allowing the other set of three to conduct instead.

If you have 80 Volts AC when the engine is running from the three yellow wires (disconnected from the RR of course) then the RR is probably the problem.

It depends on the meter. A lot of the digital meters with a diode test function will tell you how many millivolts forward voltage there is.

The voltage comes from the battery in the meter, which it is passing through the diode to test it.

 

[djscottymiami]

It depends on the meter. A lot of the digital meters with a diode test function will tell you how many millivolts forward voltage there is.

The voltage comes from the battery in the meter, which it is passing through the diode to test it.

Well I drew out the diagram of the diodes and how the multimeter and leads that are hooked up in the test and my readings make sense to me but don't jive with what's said in the stator papers? Im confused lol.

 

[bakalorz]

I've got a Fluke 179. I was checking it out on diodes test. I understand the principal of a 3phase rectifier (I work with power electrical systems at work).

I've got ~60VAC at 3000RPM (I don't want to go too high because my tach is slow and i dont want to blow anything) on all three leads coming from the stator so i'm not really worried about it.


So let me get this straight, the diodes send half the sine wave to ground? I didn't like where the ground for the R/R went so I cleaned it up and put it directly to the negative terminal on the battery (Is that a bad thing?) The connection to the chassis is good (i accidentaly hit a +12V lead to the frame and it popped a fuse so its good lol).


When I disconnected the Red wire from the R/R and started the bike, I measured 12ish volts that moved a little bit with RPM but it didn't come close to 14. It actually went down when I went on the throttle a little bit more.


If I check with the ohm method you said above, should that give me a better idea?

If your meter has a diode test function, you use that.
Your readings in the first post indicate the diodes were all good.
Your R/R passed that test.

 

[djscottymiami]

If your meter has a diode test function, you use that.
Your readings in the first post indicate the diodes were all good.
Your R/R passed that test.

OK, That's what I thought.


But why is it not giving me 13-14volts when it's idling? I've got the AC voltage at the connectors when the bike is running. Could it be the internal regulation (that brings it down to the 13-14V .. ie: the SCR and the Zener diode that are inside are toast?)

The clymer's manual (which the P.O gave to me today ) says to perform a no load test (ie: AC voltage accross the stator when it's unhooked from the R/R) and if it's satisfactory to replace the R/R to correct the low voltage condition.

----> My R/R is ****ed somehow. Agree?

Duaneage... any input? Id like to have a bike thats working properly!

 

[Steve]

But why is it not giving me 13-14volts when it's idling? I've got the AC voltage at the connectors when the bike is running. Could it be the internal regulation (that brings it down to the 13-14V .. ie: the SCR and the Zener diode that are inside are toast?)

I think you have it figured out there.

----> My R/R is ****ed somehow. Agree?

Yep, the R/ appears to be OK, but the /R is 'toast'.

.

 

[duaneage]

And if you want a superior R for the R, then the answer is the Honda ShinDenGen RR conversion. I offer rewired Honda RRs for 40 dollars delivered that are a direct bolt on for the Suzuki. They regulate better because they use higher quality parts, are rated at 450 watts instead of 280, and have a sense wire that measures the bike voltage to adjust the charging rate.

I'm the "go to guy" on the GSR for these regulator kits, PM me if interested in one, I usually ship the next day and I take paypal.

 

[bakalorz]

OK, That's what I thought.


But why is it not giving me 13-14volts when it's idling? I've got the AC voltage at the connectors when the bike is running. Could it be the internal regulation (that brings it down to the 13-14V .. ie: the SCR and the Zener diode that are inside are toast?)

The clymer's manual (which the P.O gave to me today ) says to perform a no load test (ie: AC voltage accross the stator when it's unhooked from the R/R) and if it's satisfactory to replace the R/R to correct the low voltage condition.

----> My R/R is ****ed somehow. Agree?

Duaneage... any input? Id like to have a bike thats working properly!

I think what you've written so far in this thread is not enough to narrow it to the R/R (or anything else) yet.

I somewhat doubt its the internal regulation, my understanding is that if the Zener/SCR blow, they tend to blow open but not shorted. (which would make your charging voltage go over 16 volts at 5000 rpm)
... Although I guess they could short.
If the R/R is shorted and shunting current to ground, it will be VERY hot.
You could run the bike for a couple of minutes and then touch it to see how hot it gets.


I just saw that you wrote the following lower down

When I disconnected the Red wire from the R/R and started the bike, I measured 12ish volts that moved a little bit with RPM but it didn't come close to 14. It actually went down when I went on the throttle a little bit more.
​

When the red wire from the R/R is disconnected, the bike absolutely will not charge ... the charging voltage comes from that wire. Make sure its connected when you try to measure charging voltage.
And don't measure it at idle either, a lot of GS's won't charge at idle. It must be above 13.5 at any rpm over 2000 or so though.

I would start by going over every connection in the charging path ...
Stator to R/R
R/R to fuse box
inside of fuse box at main fuse
fusebox to battery positive
R/R to battery neg (looks like you've done that one ...)

Get rid of any corrosion.
Make sure fuses are tight in holders
Make sure ALL connectors anywhere in those paths mate "firmly". If in doubt, cut them out and replace with new connectors.
Replace bullet connectors with spade connectors (I think bullet connectors make a crappy connection even when new, and after some years ... forget it)

A lot of times just cleaning and tightening connections will fix the charging system.

After spending a couple of hours doing that, then start looking for damaged components.

 

[djscottymiami]

I think what you've written so far in this thread is not enough to narrow it to the R/R (or anything else) yet.

Ok, Well lets see what I can do.

I somewhat doubt its the internal regulation, my understanding is that if the Zener/SCR blow, they tend to blow open but not shorted. (which would make your charging voltage go over 16 volts at 5000 rpm)
... Although I guess they could short.
If the R/R is shorted and shunting current to ground, it will be VERY hot.
You could run the bike for a couple of minutes and then touch it to see how hot it gets.

But at the same time, when I remove the Red R/R wire, it isolates it from everything else.... so why is it not putting out the voltage? I checked at the stator wires going to the R/R and I had good voltage.

I come from an electronics background. Looking at the diagram of the SCR, if the firing angle of the SCR is being screwed up by the zener diode (in the middle of the voltage divider circuit.... if I knew what those resistors were in that circuit I would probably have a better idea as to what the firing angle might be?), then you would probably get odd readings (which is what leads me to believe is wrong with mine). The rectifier is OK but the regulation part (as crude as it may be on this bike) isn't working 100%

I just saw that you wrote the following lower down

When I disconnected the Red wire from the R/R and started the bike, I measured 12ish volts that moved a little bit with RPM but it didn't come close to 14. It actually went down when I went on the throttle a little bit more.
​

When the red wire from the R/R is disconnected, the bike absolutely will not charge ... the charging voltage comes from that wire. Make sure its connected when you try to measure charging voltage.
And don't measure it at idle either, a lot of GS's won't charge at idle. It must be above 13.5 at any rpm over 2000 or so though.

Yes I understand that the bike will not charge if I remove this wire. I can tell you that the charging system does work partially.... One wire worked itself loose last night after I took it for a test spin and I had dim lights and it would barely run at idle. If I gave it some gas it wasn't as bad but it still ran like ****. So, the charging system is partially working but it still isn't giving me the 14 volts that I need in order to charge the battery and run the electrical system at the same time.

I would start by going over every connection in the charging path ...
Stator to R/R
R/R to fuse box
inside of fuse box at main fuse
fusebox to battery positive
R/R to battery neg (looks like you've done that one ...)

Get rid of any corrosion.
Make sure fuses are tight in holders
Make sure ALL connectors anywhere in those paths mate "firmly". If in doubt, cut them out and replace with new connectors.
Replace bullet connectors with spade connectors (I think bullet connectors make a crappy connection even when new, and after some years ... forget it)

I'll have to go out to the electrical place here and get some spade connectors on friday and re-do all of the connections I can see. I still don't think it'll make that big of a difference though because, like I said above, my stator is OK and with the R/R disconnected I don't get 14V (even when it's revved up). I still think it's the R/R but I want to make sure. The bike still works but I dont want to go too far.

A lot of times just cleaning and tightening connections will fix the charging system.
After spending a couple of hours doing that, then start looking for damaged components.

Very true. I've got to spend a few hours on friday and get this all said and done. We shall see how it goes.

The Clymers manual said to perform a no load test (ie: voltage off the stator wires). If the no-load test is good, then replace the regulator/rectifier to correct the low voltage problem...


duaneage, I'll probably end up contacting you on the weekend about this... I want to get some of the connections changed with spade connectors.

Thanks!

 

[tomm]

The only thing I might add to the recommendations you already have is that I wouldn't think you can accurately measure the regulator output (red wire) with a DC meter if it's disconnected from the battery and floating. Never tried it however, either DC or AC.
Also, I agree with Bakalorz. I'm not convinced your /R is toast yet either, although there are indications it might be. But collective wisdom would say it's more likely connections. Even if it turns out to be the /R, it may have been bad connections that helped to take it out. If you don't fix the root cause, you'll be repeating all this again later in the summer.

 

[djscottymiami]

The only thing I might add to the recommendations you already have is that I wouldn't think you can accurately measure the regulator output (red wire) with a DC meter if it's disconnected from the battery and floating. Never tried it however, either DC or AC.
Also, I agree with Bakalorz. I'm not convinced your /R is toast yet either, although there are indications it might be. But collective wisdom would say it's more likely connections. Even if it turns out to be the /R, it may have been bad connections that helped to take it out. If you don't fix the root cause, you'll be repeating all this again later in the summer.

Why wouldn't you be able to measure the voltage accurately? The regulator is what is suppsoed to be putting out the 13.5V at idle to the battery... When you hookup the multimeter to the lead (when it's disconnected) and it has issues going over 12V that leads me to believe that the regulator is having some problems. If it was an issue when the R/R was loaded (hooked up to the electrical system), my experience would say that the issue would dissapear when it is unloaded (just measuring from the leads). From what I read, you should ahve 14.1V at the battery terminals with the RPMS up and the R/R hooked up. I'm in the low 12's depending on how charged my battery is (the battery is brand new and has been load tested... it holds charge and is good).

I'd think that if it was a crappy connection, I'd get spurts of 13V or 14V on the battery terminals. My multimeter has a max/min/average feature and it didn't even come close to 14V when I revved it. I will be buying some spade connectors and re-doing a lot of them though (I had one connection get loose yesterday when i went for a ride and my bike had to rely on the crappy charging system to make it home.. that was fun).

I'm still having a hard time believing that the regulator is working properly. I'll check all my connections (I've been cleaning them with an abrasive stick for electrical contacts) and change the connectors but again, i don't think it's a connection (I could be very wrong though).

I guess the other thing I could try is to see how hot the heatsink on it gets (i can borrow a laser temperature gun from work to give you an idea) like was suggested above.


Would switching one of the wires from the stator to the rectifier maybe make a difference? From what I can understand on the wiring diagram, the White/Blue wire is the phase that goes to the side with the zener and SCR. Should I try swapping it with the Yellow phase (which just goes straight to the rectifier)? It shouldn't make a differnce since the stator is putting out voltage on all three legs properly, but who knows.

 

[doctorgonzo]

May have already been discussed, but I burned out a R/R unit, replaced it, and 10 days later burned that one out too. The root cause was too much resistance in my wiring. A heavier gauge wire from the R/R all the way through to the battery and replacement of the 30 year old glass fusebox with a modern ATC one hopefully put an end to this problem. Every day for 3 or 4 days after the second replacement I would reach down when I stopped and feel every connection on the Pos wire between the R/R and the batery to see how hot it was, and it stayed very cool. The secondary benefit was the replacement of that old fuseblock literally made every one of my lights get brighter.

 

[Matchless]

Hi,
Martin if I have it wrong here please correct me. The older type of diodes we used were made of germanium and had a voltage drop of about .3 V across it. More robust diodes were developed using silicon and they have a voltage drop of .6V across them. Our rectifiers most likely have a .6 V voltage drop across each diode.
On the older analogue meters the resistance range was used to test a diode and you actually looked for very high resistance in the reverse direction and low resistance in the forward direction.
The digital meters we get nowadayshave a special diode test setting and puts a voltage across the diode, that shows the actual voltage drop as the reading. One way should show the forward reading as the voltage drop and the other way round should give no reading on the diode test. So if you are getting a reading on the diode test setting of .6 or 600 that would be Volt or milliVolt and indicate that the diode is working.
A diode test guide using an older meter or a newer meter could be confusing if your meter is not the same as the writers and vice versa.

 

[bakalorz]

Ok, Well lets see what I can do.

But at the same time, when I remove the Red R/R wire, it isolates it from everything else.... so why is it not putting out the voltage? I checked at the stator wires going to the R/R and I had good voltage.

When its isolated, its trying to charge "nothing", so the phase's voltage can go up very fast. This makes the SCR trigger WAY too soon. (the firing angle approaches zero degrees) After that, the SCR clamps till the phase reverses. So that phase basically doesn't charge at all ...
The other phase(s) do
The meter tries to average the undefined pulsing output.

Basically, you really can't get meaningful information with the red wire disconnected (without at least a scope, and even then ...)

I come from an electronics background. Looking at the diagram of the SCR, if the firing angle of the SCR is being screwed up by the zener diode (in the middle of the voltage divider circuit.... if I knew what those resistors were in that circuit I would probably have a better idea as to what the firing angle might be?), then you would probably get odd readings (which is what leads me to believe is wrong with mine). The rectifier is OK but the regulation part (as crude as it may be on this bike) isn't working 100%

You really can't say anything about it either way with what you've written so far.

Yes I understand that the bike will not charge if I remove this wire. I can tell you that the charging system does work partially.... One wire worked itself loose last night after I took it for a test spin and I had dim lights and it would barely run at idle. If I gave it some gas it wasn't as bad but it still ran like ****. So, the charging system is partially working but it still isn't giving me the 14 volts that I need in order to charge the battery and run the electrical system at the same time.

I'll have to go out to the electrical place here and get some spade connectors on friday and re-do all of the connections I can see. I still don't think it'll make that big of a difference though because, like I said above, my stator is OK and with the R/R disconnected I don't get 14V (even when it's revved up). I still think it's the R/R but I want to make sure. The bike still works but I dont want to go too far.

The disconnected readings mean absolutely nothing.

Very true. I've got to spend a few hours on friday and get this all said and done. We shall see how it goes.

The Clymers manual said to perform a no load test (ie: voltage off the stator wires). If the no-load test is good, then replace the regulator/rectifier to correct the low voltage problem...


duaneage, I'll probably end up contacting you on the weekend about this... I want to get some of the connections changed with spade connectors.

Thanks!

You've had one bad connection. To me, that makes all the rest suspect too. You can't even begin to troubleshoot till thats taken care of.

 

[bakalorz]

Hi,
Martin if I have it wrong here please correct me. The older type of diodes we used were made of germanium and had a voltage drop of about .3 V across it. More robust diodes were developed using silicon and they have a voltage drop of .6V across them. Our rectifiers most likely have a .6 V voltage drop across each diode.
On the older analogue meters the resistance range was used to test a diode and you actually looked for very high resistance in the reverse direction and low resistance in the forward direction.
The digital meters we get nowadayshave a special diode test setting and puts a voltage across the diode, that shows the actual voltage drop as the reading. One way should show the forward reading as the voltage drop and the other way round should give no reading on the diode test. So if you are getting a reading on the diode test setting of .6 or 600 that would be Volt or milliVolt and indicate that the diode is working.
A diode test guide using an older meter or a newer meter could be confusing if your meter is not the same as the writers and vice versa.

I would mostly agree with all that ...
The only additions I would have are:

If your meter doesn't have a dedicated diode test function, you will have to read the manual for it to see if it can be used to do it on a low resistance range, many probably can, some might not.

Also, the .6 or 600 is a likely value, but don't get hung up on it. It will depend on the current the meter uses and the particular diodes used.
I would consider any value from .3/300 to 1.5/1500 to be ok as long as all 6 diodes measure reasonably close to the same and the other way is an "open"

 

[Matchless]

Martin thanks for that as it seems a lot of confusion arrises when someone follows some of the guides and gets stuck testing a diode and the results deviate from the guide or the 1980 manual.
Not so many people are familar with the differences in such a test result related to the type of meter used. Basically as you said we just really want to see if there is forward conduction and reverse blocking in this case, specific readings are not important here. The absence of a dis or a short is all that we are really testing for.