Valve Adjustment Intervals/Trouble shooting running issue 82 gs850gl

[chanceafrica]

A while back, maybe a year or two ago, my bike started running like crap. Engine would stall at a stop when the engine was hot, Engine sounded "throaty" under load and seemed a little sputtery, just generally running bad. i checked the shims, and they were out of adjustment. I made the correct adjustments and things seemed fine. It is now running like crap again, similar to how it did, maybe a tad worse.

Am i over compensating a valve issue by adjusting the shims?

What is the proper adjustment interval for the valves?

How do i properly trouble shoot this issue? ive heard doing a leakdown test will give me answers, but i have questions on how this works exactly.
I mean i get it, you apply pressure to the top end(with a dial gauge) and see where it seeps, but how exactly?

Another thing to note is a probably ride this bike harder than it is intended. This would cause the exhaust valves to burn out quicker?
I'm kind of new to four stroke valves, so i havent got trouble shooting down well yet.

How do i know if my valves are bad, need lapped, or i just need shims?

my issue might now be valve related at all, it just seems like it is, and the bike is acting like how it did before.

 

[Nessism]

Congratulations on finding the GSR. Welcome! Now that you have found us you can find tons of specific info to just about any technical topic imaginable by searching from within! There are literally thousands and thousands of posts here about valve adjustment: how to do it, links to procedures, etc. First line of attack is always the factory service manual, which you can find here...http://members.dslextreme.com/users/bikecliff/ 36 year old vehicles need maintenance so that's a good place to start.

Realize that failing to adjust the valves will result in all the clearance going away and when that happens the valves hang open and they carbon up and eventually burn. Sometimes you can install new shims and over the course of some miles the valves will reseat themselves again. You won't know until you try. After a couple hundred miles with the shims correct then you can try a compression check (hot, throttle open). I wouldn't bother testing before being sure the valves are properly adjusted though.

Good luck

 

[Steve]

To answer your question, suzuki recommended a 3000 mile interval. Good that you recognize something might not be quite "right", even if you don't know exactly what it is. :encouragement:

Nessism gave you a link to our "library", where you can find a copy of your manual and download it. Spend some time there, look around, there is a LOT more. You will find a tutorial that shows you how to do your valve clearance checks properly, along with other tutorials that show how to clean the carbs and do lots of other stuff.

One thing that is not in the "library" is the invitation in my signature. I offer a spreadsheet that helps you keep track of your clearances and what shims you have installed, which helps the next time you go to check the valves. It also includes a generic maintenance log that you can use to keep track of all the work you do to your bike.

.

 

[bwringer]

I spin the ever-loving snot out of my 850, and it's fine. It's an extremely durable engine, designed to be whipped like a rented mule -- ride it as hard as you want. Obviously, don't exceed redline, at least not by much, but spend all the time you want in the fun zone between 6,000 and 9,000.

But you MUST MUST MUST keep up with the valve checks.

Once you get them right, they don't change all that much. I check every 4,000 miles (every other oil change) and usually find one or two shims that need to be changed about every other valve check. The correct valve clearances are TINY compared to most engines

You also MUST make sure you don't have any intake leaks -- make sure the carb boots and o-rings are in good shape. Intake leaks will burn exhaust valves.

Quite often when you first correct valve clearances on a neglected bike, they'll "settle in" a bit more, I think this is due to carbon on the valves or seats that eventually comes off. In these cases, I usually try to re-check the valves a lot sooner, within the first 1,000 miles if it's not running badly.

In your case, I think it would be well worth a re-check.

 

[chanceafrica]

Wel i love this bike but im going to sell it. I dont want a bike that needs a valve adjustment every 3,000 miles. That is absurd.

I spin the ever-loving snot out of my 850, and it's fine. It's an extremely durable engine, designed to be whipped like a rented mule -- ride it as hard as you want. Obviously, don't exceed redline, at least not by much, but spend all the time you want in the fun zone between 6,000 and 9,000.

But you MUST MUST MUST keep up with the valve checks.

Once you get them right, they don't change all that much. I check every 4,000 miles (every other oil change) and usually find one or two shims that need to be changed about every other valve check. The correct valve clearances are TINY compared to most engines

You also MUST make sure you don't have any intake leaks -- make sure the carb boots and o-rings are in good shape. Intake leaks will burn exhaust valves.

Quite often when you first correct valve clearances on a neglected bike, they'll "settle in" a bit more, I think this is due to carbon on the valves or seats that eventually comes off. In these cases, I usually try to re-check the valves a lot sooner, within the first 1,000 miles if it's not running badly.

In your case, I think it would be well worth a re-check.

 

[roeme]

Wel i love this bike but im going to sell it. I dont want a bike that needs a valve adjustment every 3,000 miles. That is absurd.

Heh, with that statement you should stay away from vintage bikes in general.

Re. the 3000 mile (bit over 4000 kms)-Interval, I've been told that once everything has "burnt in", the intervals are more like 6000 km and above.

Edit: Steve, does your spreadsheet show&calculate trends?

 

[Nessism]

Wel i love this bike but im going to sell it. I dont want a bike that needs a valve adjustment every 3,000 miles. That is absurd.

Smart move! If checking shims is something you simply can't be bothered with it's best to stay away from GS's. And I agree with Rome too: stay away from all old bikes because they need maintenance.

 

[Steve]

Steve, does your spreadsheet show&calculate trends?

It provides the data, you will have to do the thinking. :-k

By looking at the tabs for the last few checks, you can see what the clearances have been and how quickly they are dropping. By interpreting those numbers (manually ), you can safely stretch out the intervals a bit, as you suggest. How far you stretch them out will have to be determined by your findings at subsequent checks. Several years ago, I sort of found the limit there. My wife's bike had gone just over 15,000 miles and I finally had to change ONE shim.

Chanceafrica: if you want a bike with virtually NO maintenance requirements, get a Goldwing. However, you will still have to get an older one. The GL1500 series was made from 1988 through 2000. They have hydraulic adjusters on the valves. Yes, they are carbureted, but I have had to do absolutely NOTHING to my carbs. I got my Wing in October, 2005, with about 91,000 miles on it, it now has over 188,000. I have changed the timing belts and tensioners and one set of spark plugs. The only other "maintenance" has been tires, brakes, oil and filters. The newer Wings are fuel injected, but have gone back to manually-adjusted valves. I think the adjustment interval might be about 30,000 miles or so, but it still needs to be done.

.

 

[chanceafrica]

i am perfectly fine with maintenance and ive had ALOT of vintage bikes. strictly vintage bikes. ive never heard of any vintage bike needing valve adjustments at 3k miles.
Its not that i cant be bothered with it, i dont want to be bothered with it. what other bikes need valve adjustments at 3k miles?

It provides the data, you will have to do the thinking. :-k

By looking at the tabs for the last few checks, you can see what the clearances have been and how quickly they are dropping. By interpreting those numbers (manually ), you can safely stretch out the intervals a bit, as you suggest. How far you stretch them out will have to be determined by your findings at subsequent checks. Several years ago, I sort of found the limit there. My wife's bike had gone just over 15,000 miles and I finally had to change ONE shim.

Chanceafrica: if you want a bike with virtually NO maintenance requirements, get a Goldwing. However, you will still have to get an older one. The GL1500 series was made from 1988 through 2000. They have hydraulic adjusters on the valves. Yes, they are carbureted, but I have had to do absolutely NOTHING to my carbs. I got my Wing in October, 2005, with about 91,000 miles on it, it now has over 188,000. I have changed the timing belts and tensioners and one set of spark plugs. The only other "maintenance" has been tires, brakes, oil and filters. The newer Wings are fuel injected, but have gone back to manually-adjusted valves. I think the adjustment interval might be about 30,000 miles or so, but it still needs to be done.

.

 

[Steve]

That is what Suzuki recommended. There are also a bunch of other things that they recommended that nobody follows, so you are free to do whatever you want.

One word of caution, though: the clearances are pitifully small on GS engines. As an example, the clearances on my Kawasaki bikes were 0.006-0.010" on intakes and 0.010-0.014" on exhausts. The range for Suzuki is 0.0012-0.0038" for intake and exhaust. With clearances that small, it is much more critical to make sure it hasn't gotten any lower. And they ALWAYS get lower with wear.

Did you also notice that, once you have determined that your clearances are not changing much, you can extend that interval?

One other way to look at it: how much do you ride? Many riders don't even put on 3,000 miles in a year, so you can think of it simply as "annual service". For those who ride a lot more, you might have to do it twice a year. Really not that much of a problem. $10 for a gasket, about 45 minutes of time, you will be done.

.

.

 

[Nessism]

Kawasaki KZ bikes require checking the valves at 5000km (3100 mile) intervals. I'd be curious to learn what similar vintage bikes have longer adjustment intervals? (and yes, I know about the Honda's with hydraulic adjusters which were oddballs).

 

[Steve]

I'd be curious to learn what similar vintage bikes have longer adjustment intervals?

Just looked in the manual for my son's Yamaha Venture Royale. (That's an '86 XVZ13DS, if it matters.)

Valve clearance is to be checked every 42,000 km (26,600 miles).

Yes, it's a water-cooled V-4 touring bike, but it's "similar vintage".

.

 

[chanceafrica]

i cant find shims locally or online. the last time i got shims i had to get them from this old school shop in richmond virginia. Pro Class. i found a guy an hour and some change from me that has shims. all i can find online are shim kits and they are 100$+

and yeah it probably takes me twice as long to do the shims. or more.
i just hear the average interval being 10-15k miles on most vintage bikes.
i dont know, maybe its not as a big of a deal as im making it. its just a real pain in the ass for me. finding, buying shims, sneaking that valve cover in and out is cumbersome. questioning my measurments and the correct way to check valve clearances. (several manuals suggest at least 2 different ways to properly check clearances.)
such as, it would make sense to check clearances when the valve is completely open, but the shop manual suggest checking when both cam lobes are opposing and they are not completely open. if i remember correctly.

Just looked in the manual for my son's Yamaha Venture Royale. (That's an '86 XVZ13DS, if it matters.)

Valve clearance is to be checked every 42,000 km (26,600 miles).

Yes, it's a water-cooled V-4 touring bike, but it's "similar vintage".

.

 

[bwringer]

i cant find shims locally or online. the last time i got shims i had to get them from this old school shop in richmond virginia. Pro Class. i found a guy an hour and some change from me that has shims. all i can find online are shim kits and they are 100$+

Off the top of my head, here are two good online sources for shims and lots of other goodies besides:
https://www.z1enterprises.com/
https://newmotorcycleparts.net/

i just hear the average interval being 10-15k miles on most vintage bikes.

Guess you heard wrong. It depends greatly on the specifics of the bike, anyway. Other bikes with a similar shim-over bucket design have similar valve check intervals. The KLR650 is shim over bucket, doesn't rev as high and has much wider valve clearance specs, and the intervals are 6,000 miles. Kawasaki KZ models with shim-under-bucket valves are a giant pain, because the cams have to come out to change shims.

The 16 valve GS models with screw and locknut adjusters don't require added parts, but they do take a lot longer and it takes more skill and "feel" to get them right. Shims are far more straightforward. Check clearance, check the shim, pick a replacement, pop it in, verify, you're done.

i dont know, maybe its not as a big of a deal as im making it. its just a real pain in the ass for me. finding, buying shims, sneaking that valve cover in and out is cumbersome. questioning my measurments and the correct way to check valve clearances. (several manuals suggest at least 2 different ways to properly check clearances.)
such as, it would make sense to check clearances when the valve is completely open, but the shop manual suggest checking when both cam lobes are opposing and they are not completely open. if i remember correctly.

You're right, it's not nearly as big a deal as you're making it. And yes, you can stretch the intervals a bit if that's more convenient -- I check every 4,000 miles, and I whip my GS850 like a rented mule. I generally only end up needing to change one or two shims every other valve check. Once you do two or three checks on your bike, you'll have some understanding of the trends.

It is a little confusing the first time through, so it is indeed very helpful to have someone help you through the procedure. I've helped several people through their first valve checks.

On a related note, I think one of us here really needs to step up and make a good video on GS valve checks. It's something I'd like to do, but I haven't pulled together the time, assistance, and equipment needed.

 

[Steve]

Well, to get one thing out of the way, there is absolutely NO way you can check clearance with the valve completely open.
Closed, yes, but open, no way.

The best way to do a valve adjustment is to follow the procedure in the Suzuki factory manual. You can get a copy of that manual by visiting our library. This is also known as "BassCliff's site" or "BikeCliff's site".

Clymer and Haynes also (sort of) tell you how to do it, but leave out a couple of rather important steps. Many feel, as you do, that the lobe should be pointing away from the valve to check the clearance. The problem with that is that the cam lobe next to it might be pushing down on its valve, pushing the cam into the oil film in the bearings. True, it's only a thousandth of an inch or so, but that is half of the range of the valve clearance. When the cam lobes are positioned correctly, one will be UP, the other will be pointing away from the center of the engine. Both of them will be at about a 45? angle to their valves, with neither one pushing down. Measure BOTH clearances without moving anything. In the 'library', there is a tutorial called Valve Adjustments (8 valve). A nice pictorial guide that shows how to do the job.

You mention the difficulty of sneaking the valve cover out. You need to remove the breather cover off the top first, then you are barely able to slide the valve cover out. Tight, but usually no problem.

You also mention lack of availability of shims. Bwringer gave you two sources, if you want to buy shims and build your own collection. If you would be interested in EXCHANGING shims, did you know that we have a "Shim Club"? Click the link, you can read all about it. Ray maintains a large inventory of shims. Let him know what you will need, and possibly an extra size or two, just in case. He will get it to you. After you do your valve adjustment, you send back all the leftovers, along with a modest donation. Certainly a LOT cheaper than buying your own shims.

As for keeping track of what you have in there now and what you might need next time, consider the invitation in my signature. It's an Excel spreadsheet that you can use to enter your current shim sizes and clearances. It will tell you what shims should be in there (within reason). By comparing clearances this time with last time, and judging by the shim size in there, you can decide whether to stretch out the interval. You can also see which clearances are getting low (they always get smaller), so you can contact the shim club ahead of time with your request for the shims you might need.

It's really not nearly as bad as you are making it out to be. If it were, NONE of us would be here singing the praises of the GS. :-\\\

.

 

[aclaytonb]

IIRC, the early 80's CB750's were every 5000km.

 

[cowboyup3371]

IIRC, the early 80's CB750's were every 5000k.

5 million miles or 5000 kilometers? If 5 million miles than that's pretty impressive



Or probably 5,000 miles?

 

[aclaytonb]

Five-hundred-millions kilometers.

Nah. Think it was every 3k miles (5k km-ish) because I remember thinking, "Holy hell thats way too much work... ." Now I know better.

Edit: FSM says 4k miles.... i lose again.

 

[LAB3]

Here's my 1/50 of a dollar. Every bike has it's quirks, ALL OF THEM! Some bikes are less of a P.I.T.A. than others, that's why they tend to hold their value better. It doesn't matter which brand or model you get, sooner or later SOMETHING will be tough to do, get parts for or be expensive for a relatively minor fix. I'm not the one that makes the rules, this is just how it is.

 

[Grimly]

I religiously checked my shims every 4000 miles or so, but the type of running I was doing (long straight motorways all day long, and not accelerating hard, even in towns) meant that almost invariably there would be no need for shim changes, so I extended the intervals to 8000 miles. That worked out fine for a few years.
When my pattern of useage changed, I still wasn't thrashing the bike but the long straight roads had gone. Checking at 4000 miles again, showed that virtually nothing had changed, and maybe the odd shim would be needed next time.
Since the long ten-year layoff of the bike, and most especially in the past two years, I've been using the engine much harder than ever before, and it's been willing and able to freely rev its guts out without negative effect. However, in the space of two years, all the inlets have closed up, and a couple of exhausts, too.
Conclusion; if you don't give harsh acceleration you can get away with 8000 mile checks, but you have to ascertain this for yourself, don't just take my word for it. Every bike is different, as is everyone's treatment of their bike. My occasional thrashing might be someone else's normal riding.