Valve cover stuck?

[Seaking]

Hi folks, I'm new to the forum and new owner of a 1983 GS650G.. Its a complete bike but it's been neglected for years, last time it ran was a couple of years ago.

I'm in the process of trying to do a valve clearance check before doing a compression check and other things.. Following the tutorials on Cliffs site, I'm kinda stuck, or should I say the valve cover?

I've removed the 17 bolts from the top of the cover (book shows 16 but I'm seeing 17?) The vent hose is removed.. There is mention of phillips screws to be removed, but I'm not seeing them.. The 4 chrome covers aren't mentioned anywhere that I remember, and the phillips screws inside of them are impossible to reach, so I'm guessing these are ornamental and not part of the valve cover removal process?

Careful inspection of the valve cover doesn't show anything else holding the cover down and it doesn't budge.. Either I'm missing a bolt or screw somewhere, this thing doesn't want to come off. There is mention of using a rubber mallet to persuade the cover to come off but how much beating is normal before it comes off. Its not budging when I hit it.. so its either in need of a lot of persuasion, or I haven't gotten all the hardware off yet..

Thoughts? Thanks in advance for any guidance.

Cheers

 

[Guest]

The 4 chrome valve cover caps need to come off. Sometimes those covers are dang stuck. I will take a long pry bar to certain spots and try prying just a bit, the aluminum is not that strong so be careful. You can smack it but again be careful. Try spraying it with something as well. They really can be a bugger sometimes. Just try to avoid putting anything in to where the gasket is as you can easily damage the aluminum, but I have done that before in an attempt to remove a cover.

 

[tkent02]

No, the 650 is different than the others. The screws come up from the bottom. You can leave the little cam end covers in place. In fact before you put the valve cover back on, tighten the cover screws good and tight, use a bit of locktight, as there's no way to do it later. Usually the valve covers don't need much effort to remove, but there's no telling what a previous owner glued it down with. May have to slice through the gasket with a razor blade. There are locating pins in a couple of the screw holes, too. They get stuck sometimes.

Yes the later models had an extra screw in the valve cover, can't remember when they switched. You may have a later engine, or at least a later head.

 

[tkent02]

Wait, yours is an '83, it has the extra screw.

 

[Guest]

Good to know. Keep us updated with your progress.

 

[Seaking]

Wait, yours is an '83, it has the extra screw.

or I have an extra screw loose!

I think I might have gotten some info wrong as I took the breather cover off and killed the 30 yr old gasket under it.. looked like it was leaking anyway..

However, the valve cover gasket is something else.. it doesn't even seem to want to cut.. can't get a thin blade in there.. fibrous, I think.. this is going to take some hmm about.. the cover looks like it's still being compressed though all the bolts are out ect

image of what I'm looking at..

http://www.eastcoastphotos.com/gs650g/picture084.jpg

I'll be working on something else in the meanwhile..

Thanks again!

 

[tkent02]

I have never seen one stuck that bad. It's just a paper gasket, shouldn't be all that hard even if it's glued down.

 

[Steve]

i had a bit of difficulty with an '82 650L just a few hours ago. I used a screwdriver under the chrome end caps to lift up the corners just a bit to get things broken loose.

Once it got started, the rest came up rather easily.

Yeah, don't worry about taking the chrome covers off, you can't reach them until you have the cam cover off, but by then, you only want to make sure all the screws are tight before you put it all back on the bike.

.

 

[Seaking]

I have never seen one stuck that bad. It's just a paper gasket, shouldn't be all that hard even if it's glued down.

been at this for a while trying to the thing off and no go. I'm going to jag it in for the night and see if anyone has an idea.. (soaking outside edge of gasket with something to soften it? ) I've tried to gentle pry the cover off with the wooden handle of the rubber mallet and just about lifted the bike off the centre stand.. nice dent in the handle.. but no budge in the cover.. this is going to get interesting real soon!

Thanks again!

Cheers

 

[blowerbike]

the dowels will stick like you still have a bolt installed.
a plastic hammer is your friend but...
use caution and be aware the VC is thin aluminum.
FYI
i did a GS1000 in 92 i think...was working for a shop.
told the owner it is stuck and i needed permission to do what ever it took to get to the valve train.
got the ok and ended up breaking the cover in a couple pieces...
the dowels was welded to the VC and head.
only one i ever had to destroy to gain entrance

 

[Seaking]

i had a bit of difficulty with an '82 650L just a few hours ago. I used a screwdriver under the chrome end caps to lift up the corners just a bit to get things broken loose.

Once it got started, the rest came up rather easily.

Yeah, don't worry about taking the chrome covers off, you can't reach them until you have the cam cover off, but by then, you only want to make sure all the screws are tight before you put it all back on the bike.

.

And YOU sir, get a beer on the house should we meet up.. THAT did the trick!! Geesus Lard Thundering Byes..

I put the open end of a wrench in under one of the chrome covers and gently pried.. no.. looks and feels like there's still something holding down the cover in the centre... pry up on the rear cover.. hmm sounds like the cover is crunching.. oh no.. wait a tic.. hang on.. ooooh.. and POP clang..

Just like that.. With your tip, I got the cover off in 2 minutes, basically negating 2 hours of me rubber malleting the hell out of the thing and prying in all the wrong places..

PHEW!! glad THAT's over with.. and the gasket looks like its in good shape on top of it all lol.. at least good enough for the run up should I get that far down the road

Thanks again folks for your assistance.. Now to continue with the valve checks..

Hmm just had a peek inside the valve train and everything looks good but down deep where the timing chain dips deep into the engine I see some gasket particles lingering out of reach on the chain itself.. Will this be of concern and potentially chew something apart? if it's big enough to see from above the frame, is it big enough to cause damage somewhere? Not sure what goes on inside that part of the engine..

 

[Seaking]

whoa.. good thing I checked the valves, because I don't think anyone else did in the last 30 yrs.. ouch. I thought I might have been doing it wrong but had someone verify that I was indeed doing it correctly..

The book calls for a clearance of between 0.03 and 0.08 on both intake and exhaust, and I can't even get my smallest feeler blade of 0.0017 in there.. in any of them..

Spark plugs out, rotate engine clockwise until the lobes are farthest away from the shim, and no dice.. not gonna happen.. tight or what? I thought I was doing it wrong, going over the tutorials and manual but thats what she reads.. I can't even get to a reference point as to how much smaller of shims I need to start with to get within range..

With clearances this tight, should I be concerned of damaged valves etc?

this image shows the smallest feeler blade I have resting against where I believe I should be inserting it..

http://www.eastcoastphotos.com/gs650g/picture087.jpg

 

[tkent02]

I was going to mention that, but was concerned about bending the cover if you had to pry like that. I don't know you at all, but some guys can't be trusted with a prybar.
The shims all too tight, this is normal for a neglected engine. The usually get tighter as they wear. Do this, put the cam in the position to test the clearance, see if you can spin the shim in the bucket with your finger. If you can, there is at least some clearance, go one size smaller than the shim that is in there. This should put you just above .05mm. If the shim won't spin, there is zero or less clearance, go two sizes smaller. This should put you somewhere less than .10mm, which is OK. You will need to remeasure it once they are all done but it should get you close.

There is a danger that you will have some burnt valves, the valves can't close when they are adjusted too tight, burning is next. Hopefully you caught it in time. Good luck.

 

[Steve]

The book calls for a clearance of between 0.03 and 0.08 on both intake and exhaust, and I can't even get my smallest feeler blade of 0.0017 in there.. in any of them.

STOP!!

Time to start using some "units of measurement" here. Yes, the book calls for "0.03 to 0.08", but it's not miles, it's millimeters. And your smallest feeler blade is 0.0017 ... whats??? I use INCH feelers and the smallest one is 0.0015", I have never seen one at 0.0017.

It is also important to note that if you interchange inches and millimeters, there is another source of confusion. The metric specs are 0.03 to 0.08mm, the inch specs are (approximately) 0.001" to 0.003". Note that both sets of specs have a "3" in them, but one is MAX, the other in MIN, and there is a different number of zeroes ahead of the 3. Again, please state your units of measurement.

Spark plugs out, rotate engine clockwise until the lobes are farthest away from the shim, and no dice.. not gonna happen.. tight or what? I thought I was doing it wrong, going over the tutorials and manual but thats what she reads..

NO!!! You do not "rotate until the lobes are farthest away from the shim". That is NOT what is directed in the manuals. There is a specific position for the cam where two adjacent lobes are both at angle away from their valves. Without moving anything measure BOTH of those valves. Set up the next pair, measure them, repeat until done.

.

 

[GSXR7ED]

^^Good call Steve,

mine calls for .03 to.05. I wish I woulda measured them before I started to adjust.


Ed

 

[Seaking]

STOP!!
Time to start using some "units of measurement" here. Yes, the book calls for "0.03 to 0.08", but it's not miles, it's millimeters. And your smallest feeler blade is 0.0017 ... whats??? I use INCH feelers and the smallest one is 0.0015", I have never seen one at 0.0017.

It is also important to note that if you interchange inches and millimeters, there is another source of confusion. The metric specs are 0.03 to 0.08mm, the inch specs are (approximately) 0.001" to 0.003". Note that both sets of specs have a "3" in them, but one is MAX, the other in MIN, and there is a different number of zeroes ahead of the 3. Again, please state your units of measurement.

NO!!! You do not "rotate until the lobes are farthest away from the shim". That is NOT what is directed in the manuals. There is a specific position for the cam where two adjacent lobes are both at angle away from their valves. Without moving anything measure BOTH of those valves. Set up the next pair, measure them, repeat until done.
.

I knew there was something wrong.. and you caught it, thanks.. In the photo linked earlier, it shows the feeler gauge blade in use.. the 0.0015 INCH measurement is 0.038 MM which is the smallest blade in my stack.. time to go get a new one.. with thinner blades.. OK, so far the clearances might not be all that bad.. but won't know until I can get thinner blades feeler gauge..

As for the lobe positioning, I've re-read the manual section on this and its clearer now how to proceed. Thanks for the clarification, I was given duff information on this part..

Thanks again for spotting the fault in my process, it makes it easier to correct and move on now.

Cheers

 

[Seaking]

I was going to mention that, but was concerned about bending the cover if you had to pry like that. I don't know you at all, but some guys can't be trusted with a prybar.

Don't worry, I'm not as ham fisted as I make it sound.. I'm rather gentle with machinery.. that's why I was so surprised at how little effort it took to lift the cover with a gentle pry under the chrome covers.. and I certainly didn't want to get bashing on the valve cover with the rubber mallet all day.. that cover is rather fragile looking..

 

[850 Combat]

The manuals for my bikes show the cam lobes lined up with the valve cover gasket, exhausts forward, and intakes rearward. I have no idea why it isn't just straight up. That is how most of my stuff is.

 

[2BRacing]

I knew there was something wrong.. and you caught it, thanks.. In the photo linked earlier, it shows the feeler gauge blade in use.. the 0.0015 INCH measurement is 0.038 MM which is the smallest blade in my stack.. time to go get a new one.. with thinner blades.. OK, so far the clearances might not be all that bad.. but won't know until I can get thinner blades feeler gauge..

As for the lobe positioning, I've re-read the manual section on this and its clearer now how to proceed. Thanks for the clarification, I was given duff information on this part..

Thanks again for spotting the fault in my process, it makes it easier to correct and move on now.

Cheers

In my humble opinion your clearances are probably all too small. You used a 0.0015 inch (0.038 mm) gauge and said earlier it would not go in any of the valves. As an approximation, this is 0.04 mm. Getting smaller feeler gauges is not going to make any significant difference, as the one you have (0.0015 inch / 0.038 mm) is for all practical purposes equivalent to the lower end of the clearance specification.

The upper clearance limit is 0.08 mm, so you are at (or below) the bottom limit. Due to the fact that clearances get smaller over time, it is a good idea to start out with your clearances at (or even slightly above, like 0.10 mm) the upper limit of 0.08 mm. Going slightly over to 0.10 mm will only result in slightly more noise, but will not do any harm.

Use the appropriate tools (OEM spanner or GSR "ziptie" method) to remove shims one by one, so that you can record the thickness marked on the underside of the shim. Never turn the crankshaft if a shim is removed from the bucket. Follow the kind offer of Mr Steve in his signature to request a spreadsheet to record each shim thickness and to make it easy for you to calculate which new thickness you need. Make use of "Shim Club" here on GSR to swap out shims.

Good luck!

 

[Seaking]

Many thanks for the sound advice 2B.. I should be able to get a shim tool in the very near future and will be able to get the job done properly.

I'll have to change out the valve cover gasket before putting it all together again. For these type of gaskets that's falling apart, I typically use a vacuum nozzle held close by the work being done to avoid anything falling into the area.. Where the shims are located, this doesn't seem to be a huge problem but looking at where the timing chain dives deep into the engine, this does concern me should any gaskt debris fall inside and can't be retrieved.. Any tips on how to deal with that if the shop vac hose doesn't catch all the debris as I'm removing the gasket from the head?

Thanks to all for their patience in helping me out with this. So simple of a job, I over complicated it.. sigh.

Cheers