Vesrah Gasket Set Failure

[Jimmy Hoffa]

There's a place called Cyclepages.com - don't know anything about them - that has the complete set for 83 and change

http://www.cyclepages.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductID=4023137

 

[AOD]

Long story short, buy Suzuki / OEM gaskets.

 

[49er]

Another Vesrah Failure

Another Vesrah Failure

A couple of days ago, I noticed oil on my left boot after arriving home form a spirited ride. Oil was spewing out somewhere on the left side and appeared to be coming from the base gasket. By the amount of oil leaking, it appears to be a major failure. I'm totally ****ed off, as the bikes been running like a dream.

On closer inspection, it looks like it's coming from the same spot as Brian reported on his earlier. I will be operating on it this weekend.
From feedback here, It's probably worth ordering OEM replacement gaskets.

 

[Guest]

A couple of days ago, I noticed oil on my left boot after arriving home form a spirited ride. Oil was spewing out somewhere on the left side and appeared to be coming from the base gasket. By the amount of oil leaking, it appears to be a major failure. I'm totally ****ed off, as the bikes been running like a dream.

On closer inspection, it looks like it's coming from the same spot as Brian reported on his earlier. I will be operating on it this weekend.
From feedback here, It's probably worth ordering OEM replacement gaskets.

or maybe you can consider refraining from future "spirited" rides so the poor gaskets are not pushed to their limits

cheers

 

[bwringer]

or maybe you can consider refraining from future "spirited" rides so the poor gaskets are not pushed to their limits

cheers

That's... that's crazy talk, man! Heresy!




Oh, BTW, that Cometic head gasket I installed last fall is now leaking oil. It did not include sealing rings at the corners. I called Cometic and they insisted it didn't need them, that their gaskets are sheer perfection, how dare I doubt the sainted Cometic name, la de da...

Well, I'm here to tell ya firsthand -- their head gasket for the GS850/GS750 is a lumpy POS and now it's leaking. And I am ****ED. :evil:

I finally got a Suzuki gasket kit, and when the leaking gets a little worse, it's going on. Lesson learned.

 

[Nessism]

All this talk of leaking gaskets is pretty alarming. Based on Brian's feedback I'm staying away from Vesrah...but taking a chance on Athena. Yea, I know, stupid. Can't help myself...I'm cheap. Partsnmore.com had a complete gasket kit for my bike for $65 shipped...and yes, I know that it's money down the drain if the gaskets fail. I'm taking the chance because this particular kit has a MLS head gasket, which I'm thinking is the most reliable type (fingers crossed).

One thing I've noticed on these old engines is that it's pretty common for there to be some warpage in the heads and cylinders. On one cylinder I have the thing looks dead flat if you lay a straight edge on top the head sealing surface but when I took the cylinder and laid it top down on a granite surface plate, one corner was sticking up .005" or so - service limit is .008". Warpage at the top means warpage on the bottom, and since the oil comes up those outer cylinder studs, it's no wonder these beasties leak oil after a while. Pretty poor design to send oil up the studs like they did in my view.

One other strange thing I've noticed is that there is a casting flaw on the Suzuki engine cases on my bike - 1980 1000S; on the top engine calm shell, where the oil feeds into the cylinder studs, the oblong channel where that strange shaped O-ring sits is not formed properly - casting flash is present on both sides. Dremmel to the rescue, easy fix, but it surprises me to see something like this. Nobody's perfect, even Suzuki.

 

[Griffin]

I'll second the "Cometic is a p.o.s.". Installed one on a Yamaha XS1100 two years ago, and it didn't look exactly flat, but close enough that I figured it would flatten out and seal ok. I torqued everything correctly, and reassembled the head.

It began leaking within thirty miles. Retorqued everything, still leaked.

I found a deal on ebay, two Yamaha OEM head gaskets for $40. Tore the head down, installed a Yammie gasket exactly the same way. No issues afterwards, at least with head gasket leaks. Fortunately for me, I got two gaskets in that deal. The head is torn down again for some valve issues.

From now on, for me it's only OEM for any engine gaskets other than Robert Barr's o-rings.

 

[rapidray]

I have said this to people on this site over & over, STOCK gaskets are the ONLY ones to use on stock motors!!!!!!!!!! Ray.

 

[Planecrazy]

I finally got a Suzuki gasket kit, and when the leaking gets a little worse, it's going on. Lesson learned.

I was told by the gurus over at Cycle-Recycle II that Vesrah MAKES the OEM gaskets for Suzuki and other brands... Based on past experience with CRC II that's a pretty solid piece of information, so what to believe?

Regards,

 

[Griffin]

I was told by the gurus over at Cycle-Recycle II that Vesrah MAKES the OEM gaskets for Suzuki and other brands... Based on past experience with CRC II that's a pretty solid piece of information, so what to believe?

Regards,

Now don't get me wrong, I love CRCII, was in there today as a matter of fact. But Rob IS a businessman, trying to sell you things out of his store.

Caveat emptor with any aftermarket equipment or parts....

 

[Planecrazy]

Now don't get me wrong, I love CRCII, was in there today as a matter of fact. But Rob IS a businessman, trying to sell you things out of his store.

Caveat emptor with any aftermarket equipment or parts....

I know, Brett, but he could just have easily claimed that Vesrah was "just as good" or "better" than stock ... that's not what he said. He claimed that Vesrah actually makes the stock stuff ... and by the way, I have had good success to date with my Vesrah stuff so I had no reason to think any differently.

Regards,

 

[bwringer]

Again, I have used several Vesrah kits in the past with no problems.

However, I think there has been a change or there were several defective items in the last Vesrah kit I used. Not just stuff that might have been errors in assembly or preparation -- serious material failures.

It's only a sample of one, but that's enough for me. I value my time spent repeating work far more than the extra $90 for a Suzuki kit.

Also, I have since obtained a Suzuki gasket kit. Let me tell you, it is far, far more complete than the Vesrah kit, and I think ultimately a much better value.

The Suzuki kit contains EVERYTHING except the crank and transmission seals. I'm also not entirely sure if it contains the cam chain tensioner seals and o-rings, or if it contains the seals for the tach drive. I haven't taken the kit out of its various bags yet to find out.

Of course, the head gasket is obviously much higher quality, with sealing rings built in to the corners.

They even include the many sealing washers and drain plug gaskets required, along with intake boot o-rings, o-rings for the bevel gears, an o-ring for the gear indicator, o-rings for the oil pump, the o-ring that goes between the case halves, a cam chain tensioner gasket, etc. It's actually a complete kit, not the half-assed Vesrah collection.

 

[Guest]

They even include the many sealing washers and drain plug gaskets required, along with intake boot o-rings, o-rings for the bevel gears, an o-ring for the gear indicator, o-rings for the oil pump, the o-ring that goes between the case halves, a cam chain tensioner gasket, etc. It's actually a complete kit, not the half-assed Vesrah collection.

i didn't know that... but yeah, that's what's supposed to be meant by "COMPLETE", i guess...
... so, next time definitely OEM for a peace of mind and an actual COMPLETE set

thanks brian!

 

[49er]

Again, I have used several Vesrah kits in the past with no problems.

However, I think there has been a change or there were several defective items in the last Vesrah kit I used. Not just stuff that might have been errors in assembly or preparation -- serious material failures.

It's only a sample of one, but that's enough for me. I value my time spent repeating work far more than the extra $90 for a Suzuki kit.

Also, I have since obtained a Suzuki gasket kit. Let me tell you, it is far, far more complete than the Vesrah kit, and I think ultimately a much better value.

The Suzuki kit contains EVERYTHING except the crank and transmission seals. I'm also not entirely sure if it contains the cam chain tensioner seals and o-rings, or if it contains the seals for the tach drive. I haven't taken the kit out of its various bags yet to find out.

Of course, the head gasket is obviously much higher quality, with sealing rings built in to the corners.

They even include the many sealing washers and drain plug gaskets required, along with intake boot o-rings, o-rings for the bevel gears, an o-ring for the gear indicator, o-rings for the oil pump, the o-ring that goes between the case halves, a cam chain tensioner gasket, etc. It's actually a complete kit, not the half-assed Vesrah collection.

Since the OEM gasket sets are so complete, I've decided to do a full strip down. It seems pointless just doing the top end when all the other seals and gaskets are 30 years old. Incidently, I replaced the clutch cover gasket out of the same Vesrah set and it's also seeping oil.

While the engines out, I might be tempted to do a complete repaint! Nah, it can't be much fun worrying about getting your first stone chip.

Psyguy, that would see an end to the spirited rides!

Vesrah have obviously changed material compositions from the earlier versions, probably to keep the price down. All it's done, is ruin their reputation!!

 

[Billy Ricks]

I wonder if the decline in quality has anything to do with asbestos being taken out of everything these days? I'm not sure if they ever contained asbestos but I wouldn't doubt it.

 

[49er]

I wonder if the decline in quality has anything to do with asbestos being taken out of everything these days? I'm not sure if they ever contained asbestos but I wouldn't doubt it.

You could be right. I believe that automotive gaskets where asbestos based, and that boiler gasket material was a composition of asbestos and steel. Both have changed substanially in recent years.

Incidentally, my thoughts on the use of Multi layered steel head gaskets as made by cometic, have changed. They claim that heads don't need to be re-torqued when their MLS's are used. This gasket design reduces the likelyhood of bore distortion due to over tightening.
Base gaskets are also available in stainless steel coated with viton rubber (0.001" coating).

The other advantage that Ray pointed out some time back, is you don't have to clean up/scrape the head and block surfaces, each time you pull the engine apart,when using MLS gaskets.

I'm a believer!!

 

[bwringer]

I wonder if the decline in quality has anything to do with asbestos being taken out of everything these days? I'm not sure if they ever contained asbestos but I wouldn't doubt it.

The most serious failures in my kit were the o-rings (cam chain tunnel and rear oil passages). If the o-rings in the rear oil passages had held up, the oil probably wouldn't have made it to the defective POS base gasket.

 

[trippivot]

I read the first post in this thread. I have great respect for people that do their own engine work-to a point..

the diagnosis of bad materials in the rubber o rings and a cracked paper gasket. may be very wrong.

I have some ideas
#1. overheating rubber totally cooked to stiff solid (350++ F. degrees)
#2. under torque - due to not re-torquing after multiple heat cycles - the cylinders moved between the head and case block breaking the brittle overheated paper.
#3 over torque can do similar effects to the base gasket too.

I have used veshrah for many many years. I have torn down my own engines years after the build- kawasaki dealership work order history - air and liquid cooled engines- to have all o rings in plyable condition and lots of work scraping the base gasket that sealed itself to the aluminum.

Now I am sure you will defend your assembling skill and procedure and I am not going to cross that bridge to suggest any such thing.

I have yet to have any complaints to the quality of the vesrah product.
never got a bad set in over 18 years.

heat and pressure will turn coal into diamonds. heat and pressure damaged your gaskets and o rings. (or lack of proper pressure)

better luck next time and get rid of the haynes/clymer toilet paper books- they cause more trouble than they solve for non trained technitions.

 

[49er]

I read the first post in this thread. I have great respect for people that do their own engine work-to a point..

the diagnosis of bad materials in the rubber o rings and a cracked paper gasket. may be very wrong.

I have some ideas
#1. overheating rubber totally cooked to stiff solid (350++ F. degrees)
#2. under torque - due to not re-torquing after multiple heat cycles - the cylinders moved between the head and case block breaking the brittle overheated paper.
#3 over torque can do similar effects to the base gasket too.

I have used veshrah for many many years. I have torn down my own engines years after the build- kawasaki dealership work order history - air and liquid cooled engines- to have all o rings in plyable condition and lots of work scraping the base gasket that sealed itself to the aluminum.

Now I am sure you will defend your assembling skill and procedure and I am not going to cross that bridge to suggest any such thing.

I have yet to have any complaints to the quality of the vesrah product.
never got a bad set in over 18 years.

heat and pressure will turn coal into diamonds. heat and pressure damaged your gaskets and o rings. (or lack of proper pressure)

better luck next time and get rid of the haynes/clymer toilet paper books- they cause more trouble than they solve for non trained technitions.

Thanks for your feedback. You raise some very good points, especially when considering the operating conditions of air cooled engines.

In my case, I considered the visual quality of the Vesrah set to be very good. I did need to elongate one of the alignment dowel holes to make the head gasket fit correctly though.

I torqued my head to 30 ft lbs, then re-torqued it after the first 800 kms.
The head gasket seems fine, but the base gasket has just started leaking in the same area as Brians did.

I have been interupted during the strip down, so can't yet confirm the exact area or cause of leakage as yet.

If those elongated head to cylinder o rings won't take more than 350 deg F, then I'm not surprised that they are breaking down.

My 850, in the tuning specs from the PO was running rich, but the same gasket fitted up with a MLS gasket, had severely deteriated as well. It just looked like someone had assembled it with some tube sealant. Incidently, the engine was previously assembled by a Suzuki dealership.

I'll be re-checking all mating surfaces for distortion very closely before it's next re-assembly. I don't enjoy pulling an engine down after only 9000 kms.

 

[49er]

We've been conned, big time!!

We've been conned, big time!!

Just completed the top end disassembly. Head and barrells separated surprisingly, with ease. Very little scraping will be required on either surface. The barrells also lifted off the crankcase cleanly.

I'd say that Jeff is right on the mark when he suggested that these Vesrah sets had been poorly copied in Taiwan. I found some disturbing anomolies when investigating.

1. The cam chain tunnel gasket is in tact, but had been partially displaced due to insufficiect clamping pressure. This has resulted in the elastomer material on the head gasket braking down in the area adjacent to the #2 cylinder sealing ring. If I had kept running the engine like that, it would have eventually blown a head gasket between the #2 bore and the cam chain tunnel.

2. Besides the elastomer material breaking down on the head gasket surface, the gasket itself was not designed to cover the elongated o ring, as the Multi Layer Steel gaskets do. Because of this, there's not enough clamping pressure onto the o ring and it's allowed to walk around in it's groove, under differing temperate cycles.

3. There are 2 contributing factors to my base gasket failure. Firstly, the tear drop shaped o rings that fit into the recesses on the outer rear studs, are undersized and consquently not sealing properly when the barrells are torqued up. I have checked them against an OEM item and their cross sections are way smaller. They don't seem to be breaking down yet, but have seriously distorted and allow oil to make direct contact with the base gasket.
The second concern is that there is evidence of a reduction of surface pressure on the base gasket in the area of the leak. This is probably caused by distortion of the cylinder base or poor machining. I still need to do some cleaning and measuring off a surface table to confirm my suspicions.

In summary, the gasket set is not up to spec. As Brain said, it's a POS. I don't have any experience with earlier Vesrah sets, so can't comment on their design around the can chain tunnel. It's a shame that pirating companies can't easily be held accountable.

Now in the process of taking some pics before cleaning.