Why do modern bikes feel so precise?

[Fjbj40]

No Tom...A bike is made to be ridden. You know, a combined EXPERIENCE which involves some operator involvement.

To me, todays bikes are to over thought and absolutely boring. EFI, a light that signals if there dog sh!t in the road...blah blah blah. If I had a bike like that it wouldnt ever get ridden and would be unexciting. Like i said, if anyone wants a bike thats gonna do everything for you they are better off riding biitch. That way they can be unengaged and be able to gaze off into the fields and watch birdies fly by.

I don't thing John kat was asking the bike to drive itself!

He simply was wondering why today's bikes are so much more crisp than yesteryear bikes.

You can have something that is more precise and still require as much skill as an unprecise machine.

More precise machines can have a higher limit of handling that puts the driver in a more challenging and exciting level of experience.

Take a less precise machine and you are approaching or exceeding the safety limits and you get just as thrilling a ride but nowhere near the limit of the new more precise machine.

Same idea, newer more precise, or older less precise. It's all about the level of performance one wants to reach.

If it makes you feel like a bigger man because you try to push the antiquated unprecise machine at or over its limits then great for you.:clap:

That's does not mean you can do the same to a more modern precise machine. The majority of the new super bike owners probably never approach the handling limits of their machine, nor do they sit back and gaze off into the fields. statement from chuck!

I have returned back to motorcycles this year after a 13 year hiatus. I built my 1000/1085 with a Bandit 1200 front end and rear wheel with far superior brakes and now handling. Why did I do it? For a safer superior feel and braking performance. Will I drive the bike to its limits? I doubt it very much, not for a while anyways as I am relearning how to drive again:clap:

My balls are still the same size! Actually smaller sometimes because of the power and handling that my current 1000 has over my previous 2 1000's.

Cheers

 

[Guest]

Hiya John
My opinion.
There are many factors to the more precise feel. One, the stiffer forks and swing arm. But more the better control the cartridge has over the orifice damper rods. But perhaps, it is more a function of the smaller wheel and tire with less rotating inertia? The steeper head angle and different/less trail improves the handling but could lead to "less precise" handling. And perhaps the reduction in the un sprung mass as well?
I don't consider the frame material and design a big factor on the street as you wouldn't be pushing it hard enough to find the limits. Or at least, you shouldn't be.
Isn't it all about control?
The stiffer springs do help, though just a little. The rate of dive and compression will lead to a better feeling versus the older damper rod system.
I just compare my old '07 GSXR1K to anything else and it is like light years in difference. Though I am not too thrilled about the fatigue resistance of aluminum frames.
Maybe this helps?
Laters
Greg

 

[tkent02]

Chuck, once again you are clueless. Go ride a new Aprilia, Hyabusa or KTM and tell me you don't need to be a rider. Go ahead, ride it hard. Push the bike to it's limits. If you can.

If anything, it requires you to be a better rider. The higher speeds and incredible power require you to be quicker, sharper, stronger, just better.
The lack of suspension problems, poor brakes and carburetion issues allows you to spend more time riding, and less time correcting for inadequate BS.

Old bikes are amusing, new bikes are amazing.

 

[trippivot]

technology.

technology.

I think lighter weight is the #1 factor
once a 30HP bike was 400# now a 120HP bike is 400#

rake / trail / stem offset combinations in the front geometry would be my choice for #2 make a light bike feel like it is lighter

the amount of aluminum in today's bikes which transfer vibration differently to the handlebars and foot pegs. close tie for #3

radial tires matched to the total geometry of a specific motorcycle. might be the real answer.

mild steel and floppy bias ply tires make me happy

 

[chuck hahn]

I find new bike styling and all the whiz bang bullcrap as boring as watching ice melt. I like what I was raised up on. Good enough then is good enough now for me.

Why do you ASSUME that I havent rode the newer bikes? I have ridden new Honda CBRs, Ducatis, An Aprillia, a few different Harleys, Gold Wings, just to name a few. And not one has won me over like the GSs have. I dont think I would even want a bike newer than say 1985 honestly.

 

[Guest]

I also forgot about the crankshaft and clutch baskets rotating inertia as well. Though these do not contribute to the precise feeling, they do help in the handling. Transition and actual turning.
Later
G

 

[John Kat]

I don't thing John kat was asking the bike to drive itself!

He simply was wondering why today's bikes are so much more crisp than yesteryear bikes.

You can have something that is more precise and still require as much skill as an unprecise machine.

More precise machines can have a higher limit of handling that puts the driver in a more challenging and exciting level of experience.

Take a less precise machine and you are approaching or exceeding the safety limits and you get just as thrilling a ride but nowhere near the limit of the new more precise machine.

Same idea, newer more precise, or older less precise. It's all about the level of performance one wants to reach.

If it makes you feel like a bigger man because you try to push the antiquated unprecise machine at or over its limits then great for you.:clap:

That's does not mean you can do the same to a more modern precise machine. The majority of the new super bike owners probably never approach the handling limits of their machine, nor do they sit back and gaze off into the fields. statement from chuck!

I have returned back to motorcycles this year after a 13 year hiatus. I built my 1000/1085 with a Bandit 1200 front end and rear wheel with far superior brakes and now handling. Why did I do it? For a safer superior feel and braking performance. Will I drive the bike to its limits? I doubt it very much, not for a while anyways as I am relearning how to drive again:clap:

My balls are still the same size! Actually smaller sometimes because of the power and handling that my current 1000 has over my previous 2 1000's.

Cheers

I could not have worded a better answer
Thanks!

 

[chuck hahn]

My comment wasnt worded toward John..was directed at the new bikes as a whole....boring and unengaging.

 

[Guest]

Modern bikes, (when referenced against the GS suzuki's) are any thing less than 20 or25 years
Modern bikes feel more precise and planted, mostly because the wheels are in full contact with the ground more of the time than with the GS pogo stick over sprung under damped p.o.s. "Suspension systems"There are other factors, but suspension is the most significant.specifically spring rates and damping.
I don't believe the "styling and whiz bang bull crap"has anything to do with precise planted handling.

 

[chuck hahn]

If a GS isnt solid enough then it needs some maintenance.
None of mine bounce, jump, jiggle, wander, weave, twitch, slouch or anything else. Go from 0 to full open and nothing but fun.

 

[tkent02]

My vote is more rigid frames, swingarms, bigger bearings in wheels, swingarms and steering heads, more rigid forks. Better suspension plays a huge part too, a bike with a super plush and properly damped suspension always feels more precise and accuate than a bouncy or harsh one. Same with the wider wheels, better tires and real brakes.


I like the old bikes too, but here is absolutely no comparison in the ride and handling.

 

[Guest]

I for one can say that just changing the front and rear suspension will make a world of difference. I have my 78 GS1000[ Roadkill] with 96 bandit suspension and modern brakes , wheels and tires. and it handles very comparable to the Kawasaki ZRX that I just sold this past spring, But I also have a 80 GS1000 in stock form [except for ss brake lines] and the two don't even compare. I won't say that the old '80' handles poorly, [as few who have ridden with me can attest] but I could ride circles around it on the '78' with the updated suspension.I also don't believe that there is a large amount of frame flex in these older GS's, I believe the frames to be as rigid as any of the newer stuff, maybe stiffer in some instances.

 

[RichDesmond]

Sorry, it's not the stiffness as I tried .95 kg/mm springs in my GSXR G/H fork.
It helps for sure but it's not the answer...
The triple clamp offset will change the trail of the bike and thus the effort needed to point the bike in another direction.
It has no impact on how precise and taught the bike feels.
More trail gives the bike a truck like feel.
Exactly what I experienced with experiment N?3: a 19" wheel combined with a very small triple tree offset

I meant the physical stiffness of the forks, not the spring rate.
Trail most definitely can affect how precise and taut a bike feels. Not as much as some other factors, but certainly noticeable.

 

[jwhelan65]

The real difference is "Mass Centralization" this is why new bikes are so refined almost to the point of boredom.

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/features/122_0905_drawing_line_mass_movement/

 

[posplayr]

The real difference is "Mass Centralization" this is why new bikes are so refined almost to the point of boredom.

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/features/122_0905_drawing_line_mass_movement/

I agree that the feel of newer sport bikes is more fundamental than suspension changes. Having said that it is also the combination of things that go into a modern bike. But even if you upgrade an old gs you are not going to drop the weight, wheel base and " moments of inertia" down to the level of modern bikes. mass centralization is basically the reduction Of the rotational moments of inertia. MOI is the resistance to changes in rotational speed and direction.

Having maxed of the performance of my relatively stock gs1100ed with sport demons, progressive spings, cartridge emulatiors and Ohlins rear shocks, there was a big leap forward in handling/stability going to wide wheels and radials that you just don't get with the tall profile bias ply tires. I also had a bandit swing arm added in there so I don't know how to factor that put completely but I would guess it is much less noticeable than the wheel/tire upgrade.

 

[tkent02]

this is why new bikes are so refined almost to the point of boredom.

What, are you riding Hondas?

 

[John Kat]

Having maxed of the performance of my relatively stock gs1100ed with sport demons, progressive spings, cartridge emulatiors and Ohlins rear shocks, there was a big leap forward in handling/stability going to wide wheels and radials that you just don't get with the tall profile bias ply tires. I also had a bandit swing arm added in there so I don't know how to factor that put completely but I would guess it is much less noticeable than the wheel/tire upgrade.

Hi Jim,
Here's my GS 1000 XP in the latest configuration that I've been discussing in this thread.
You will recognize your wheels
It's a pity that the GSR members here couldn't take a ride on my bike throughout it's evolution to really feel the quantum jump the cartridge type forks ( with the right rear shocks) bring to the roadholding...
Having gone myself from a very similar configuration to yours, I urge you to go to the next step and feel the difference
I must admit however that it will most probably be less confortable...
By the way the article on mass centralization must be wrong when it is stated that "the rotational axis is the steering head"?
What is rotating around what?
Nevermind, I'm having a LOT of fun with an antiquated bike that behaves ( almost) like a modern one at least from a roadholding perspective

 

[jwhelan65]

What, are you riding Hondas?

I have two

 

[limeex2]

Suspensions, brakes and frames. I have 3 modern Triumph's. I buy them because of the suspensions. Our roads suck huge and they seem to be the only bike that soaks up ****ty roads. Modern sport bikes are made to handle well on the track also, this requires very rigid frames for better feed back. It also makes for a very stiff ride. GS's imo, work best with, wire wheels, laced up with hd spokes and wider rims. 18" front and back.18 inch front make turn in much nicer. Take every ounce of weight off you can by with. Use the updated brakes here on the forum with HH pads. I converted my rear brake set up with a Fz-1 rear set up with gs550es rotors. Saved weight and centalized mass. Found a place to get parts to weld my own exhaust canister.Saved weight again and looks like motogp, also centralized mass and if it tips over wont destroy my unobtainium Bassani. Suspension. Get race tech valves for the front, new bushings and have them done and set up PROPERLY. Dont be a cheapskate. Do it right or dont do it at all. Rears need to be modern also, they need dampning and rebound adjustments. When all done properly and working together, GS's work great, but a lot of work, patience and money to get there. The end result will amaze you and surprise the young squids.

 

[jwhelan65]

Chuck, once again you are clueless. Go ride a new Aprilia, Hyabusa or KTM and tell me you don't need to be a rider. Go ahead, ride it hard. Push the bike to it's limits. If you can.

If anything, it requires you to be a better rider. The higher speeds and incredible power require you to be quicker, sharper, stronger, just better.
The lack of suspension problems, poor brakes and carburetion issues allows you to spend more time riding, and less time correcting for inadequate BS.

Old bikes are amusing, new bikes are amazing.

Agreed..... New bike power is hard to describe.