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#4 carb acting the fool

patrickhimself

Forum Apprentice
1979 GS750L. All carbs (VM, Mikuni 26mm) have been dipped 24 hours, blown out, sprayed out and properly cleaned. New O-Rings all around. The floats are all set at 25.5mm (high spec for a 79). Slides have been synched (using the Morgan carbtune). Airbox has been sealed (one side is with weather stripping, one side is with the original rubber gasket, which is in pretty good condition). Airbox boots are nice and pliable, intake boots are nice and pliable, no cracks or weirdness on either. All valves are in spec (lowest clearance is about .05mm, highest is .10mm). Gas gets into the carbs no problem. Tank is clean. Petcock holds vacuum.

I'm sure you guys will let me know if I've missed anything, but suffice to say, I think I've taken care of everything this side of the pistons.

So here's the deal: I'm getting a real rough idle, with some pretty severe hesitation up to about 1/8th throttle (like, it doesn't kill the bike...but the bike kind of goes "hmmm, oh throttle?" for a half second, then picks up and goes real fast).

I think it's the #4 carburetor.

If I let the thing idle for a few minutes, the #1 - #3 pipes will burn my hand (something severe, truth be told), but I could grab on to the #4 pipe and it's just enough to keep my hand warm on a mild evening in the shop.

The odd bit is: I go out and ride it and it has no problem with 70, 80, 90mph. So long as i have the throttle pulled way far back, she just wants to go. As soon as I let up: "sputter sputter sputter".

I checked the plug, and I'm getting a nice, strong spark out of it. Tweaking the air and fuel mixture screw on the #4 carb has no noticeable affect. I can screw them all the way in and it runs. I can unscrew them 4-5 complete turns and get the same result.

The last bit of fun: I'm getting fuel seeping out around the plug. My thought is that the #4 carb is running way too rich and the gas isn't burning off, but I don't know what the deal is here.

Backstory re: Carb #4. This carb body is not the body that came with the bike. It's a replacement that I had to pick up because the original's fuel screw hole stripped out. It is basically the same carb, but differs from the other 3 in a few different ways:

#1 The pilot screws screw in much further than on the other 3 carbs. If I lightly seat then unscrew 2 turns, the screw heads sit right about where the screws would sit turned all the way in on the other carbs.

#II At the point where the needle valve enters the needle jet (hawt...)?on the other three carbs there is a small divet or washer or something that extends from the hole about 2mm. There is no such thing on the #4 carb body. This?coupled with the above?leads me to believe that the carb body is a slightly different model than mine.

C) There is some significant pitting in some places on this carb (particularly around inside the roof of the carb bowl area ). It kind of looks like a luffa in some places.

Erm...if that made any sense and anybody has any ideas, please respond. I'm getting ready to just buy a new bike and swear off carburetors forever....
 
1.The pilot air screw, or pilot fuel?
2. probably no significant
C. You didn't clean that off?


You symptoms indicate that something is wrong in the idle circuit. Normal problems are clogged pilot jet or clogged passage in the circuit
 
As you changed #4 body, I assume you installed the original brass (jets) into the replacement body including the needle jet.. and checked they are all what should be there compared to the parts list...

right?
 
Adjust your pilot fuel screws out to the point the air adjust for highest idle is 2-2 1/4 turns out. Pilot fuel needles are just visible below the small hole in the throat of the carburetor when lightly seated. If they stick up into the throat, they have ground the hole out bigger by being tightened too much and proper adjustment is a lot harder. If they are not super clean, it is easy to tighten them up too much and damage the seat.
 
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1.The pilot air screw, or pilot fuel?
2. probably no significant
C. You didn't clean that off?


You symptoms indicate that something is wrong in the idle circuit. Normal problems are clogged pilot jet or clogged passage in the circuit

1. Both...I think. I know for a fact the air screw sits lower. I'll check the fuel pilot screw again later.
2. You're probably right.
3. It's etched into the metal, like it's rotted or something. Not sure how I would clean it off.

I cleaned the carb pretty thoroughly. I'll pull it out and spray some carb cleaner through everything again, just to make sure, but I don't think I've got a clogged passage.

As you changed #4 body, I assume you installed the original brass (jets) into the replacement body including the needle jet.. and checked they are all what should be there compared to the parts list...

right?

Yes, all parts are accounted for. I'm not THAT noobish.

Adjust your pilot fuel screws out to the point the air adjust for highest idle is 2-2 1/4 turns out. Pilot fuel needles are just visible below the small hole in the throat of the carburetor when lightly seated. If they stick up into the throat, they have ground the hole out bigger by being tightened too much and proper adjustment is a lot harder. If they are not super clean, it is easy to tighten them up too much and damage the seat.

The of the pilot fuel screw doesn't stick up into the throat of the carb. So I guess it doesn't technically seat further than the other carbs, but the collar for the screw is taller, maybe? Or maybe only the air screw sits deeper (I'm double guessing my sanity right now...).

It doesn't really seem to matter where I put the screws, I don't really notice a change in idle, and I'm getting liquid gas squeezing out around the spark plug from the cylinder.

I'll pull it again tonight and triple check everything, but if anyone has any other ideas what I should be looking for, please do not be shy.
 
Sounds like a candidate for another tear down and a 24hr soak in carburetor dip. The pilot fuel circuit is probably still stopped up. Everything needs to be out of the carburetors when they are dipped so it gets to all the tiny passages. You did adjust your valves before you started this didn't you?
 
The pilot fuel screw should be set about 3/4 turn out

I'd pull all of the pilot fuels and look down in the carb body and see if all of the holes the needle tip fits into are the same size and compare the brass needles for size. Broken off needle tips in that hole are a very common problem

Overtightening the fuel needle is a common problem and it reams out the hole in the carb body. Any goof before you could have done this

If need be , take a fine wire, or guitar string and poke it thru all the passages in the carb body. You may find a blob of something in there

#3, don't worry about it. The top of the float chamber does nothing except hold air
 
If I let the thing idle for a few minutes, the #1 - #3 pipes will burn my hand (something severe, truth be told), but I could grab on to the #4 pipe and it's just enough to keep my hand warm on a mild evening in the shop.

Before you start tearing into the carbs again, do the following.

Swap the No.1 and No.4 spark plug leads over. Let us know if the "cool" pipe changes to the No.1 cylinder.

You mentioned that you had a strong spark but that doesn't necessarily mean that the 1-4 ignition coil is in tip-top condition.
 
If all of the above mentioned doesn't solve the problem, I'd suggest a compression check to ensure that isn't mechanical in nature ie. rings from a washed out cylinder.
 
Before you start tearing into the carbs again, do the following.

Swap the No.1 and No.4 spark plug leads over. Let us know if the "cool" pipe changes to the No.1 cylinder.

You mentioned that you had a strong spark but that doesn't necessarily mean that the 1-4 ignition coil is in tip-top condition.

Too late, the carb is already soaking. I can try that when I get it put back together, but isn't crossing the leads like that bad for the motor?

If all of the above mentioned doesn't solve the problem, I'd suggest a compression check to ensure that isn't mechanical in nature ie. rings from a washed out cylinder.

Was thinking about that. I needed a new tool anyway.

Won't be able to get this all put back together until tomorrow. Thanks for all the suggestions thus far, folks!
 
Too late, the carb is already soaking. I can try that when I get it put back together, but isn't crossing the leads like that bad for the motor?

no, the GS motor (like most 4s) is set up to fire a waste spark in every cylinder. So, you can swap 1&4, which fire from the same coil and 2&3 spark plugs wires without harm


How do you pilot fuel holes look? all the same size? any broken tips?
 
no, the GS motor (like most 4s) is set up to fire a waste spark in every cylinder. So, you can swap 1&4, which fire from the same coil and 2&3 spark plugs wires without harm


How do you pilot fuel holes look? all the same size? any broken tips?

Oh ok, good to know.

Pilot fuel holes all look good. No broken tips. Didn't notice any difference in size when I had them apart last week, but I'll take another look tonight.
 
Alright, quick update:

I ended up having a little extra time last night, so I decided to put the carbs back together. On a whim, I took a look at the borked carb body I replaced, and found the broken off tip of a fuel mixture screw stuck in its throat.

I compared all of the fuel screws. The one in my errant carb was about a mm shorter than the others. Also, that same screw tapered in about 5mm from the top, creating a little bit of a ridge.

So, I took a file to it in an attempt to smooth it out and sharpen it. No luck, maybe a little smoother of a putpputput, but not a proper idle. I didn't have time to swap it out with a mixture screw from another carb (first thing when I get home from work today), but I'd guess this was, at the very least a contributing factor.

Sooooo....thoughts? And where can I find a good mixture screw?
 
Z1 sells them, I'm running a set in mine

they have longer heads, Kawasaki style, which makes it easier to tweak the mixture

Broken fuel tip? Yeah, that will wreck the fuel flow
 
Out of stock at Z1, I'll look around.

Swapped the pilot screws from #1 and #4 to see what would happen, and now #1 is the sputterer. Looks like the fuel screw is the culprit.
 
Update: Bought a carb rebuild kit from Z1. Reassembled the carbs and installed them. Noticed some stuttering in cylinder 1, pulled the plug and noticed the gap was closed, so re-gapped it and reinstalled it. No stutter.

Tuned the carbs to get it to where there was no hesitation. Went pretty well, I'll probably tweak them some more tomorrow. Tweaking the #4 carb still didn't seem to change much, but no more stuttering there either.

Took her out for a ride, seemed to ride pretty well. Nice and fast.

The valve cover and breather cover are leaking a bit. I've got a gasket for the valve cover, but I can't find the breather gasket...

Thanks for all the help folks!
 
Well, still no good. I'm getting no idle fire on the #4 cylinder still, and the pipe is cold enough to touch.

I put brand new spark plugs in and ran let it idle a while. The other three came out grey on the tip and brownish on the ceramic. #4 came out mostly clean with some black gunk.

I did a compression test, and with the throttle full open I get ~120psi across the board, but with the throttle off I get ~90psi for cylinders 1-3, but 70psi for cylinder 4. Could this be pointing to something? Or does it not matter at 0 throttle?

I'm really at a loss here.
 
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